WhatsApp Policy Changes

Speaker 1 (00:08):

Welcome to title cast with your host Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanities gets into the future. And source data defines the path.

Alexander McCaig (00:26):

Hello, Jason.

Jason Rigby (00:27):

Hello, Alexander McCaig.

Alexander McCaig (00:28):

What's up?

Jason Rigby (00:29):

How are you doing, sir?

Alexander McCaig (00:29):

What's up?

Jason Rigby (00:30):

What's up?

Alexander McCaig (00:31):

What's up? What's happening with you? What's happening with you?

Jason Rigby (00:32):

What's happening with me. Especially, I use WhatsApp to communicate with some of our employees in different parts of the world, because they use that. What's up.

Alexander McCaig (00:49):

[inaudible 00:00:49] we can't bring that back.

Jason Rigby (00:50):

So WhatsApp is... A lot of people... Maybe if you're in the United States, then you may not get the big deal about this, but WhatsApp is hugely important all over the world. It's the largest messenger app out there.

Alexander McCaig (01:02):

Yeah. If you thought it was anything else, you'd be wrong.

Jason Rigby (01:07):

Yeah. So majority of the world has Android based phones and they have Facebook on there and WhatsApp is free. Where a lot of the world, you still have to pay for data.

Alexander McCaig (01:17):

If you think people are just using the text message app that comes native with your iPhone or Android.

Jason Rigby (01:23):

No.

Alexander McCaig (01:23):

They're not.

Jason Rigby (01:24):

No, they're not. And so WhatsApp just came out with this mandatory, share your data with Facebook update.

Alexander McCaig (01:30):

Oh boy.

Jason Rigby (01:32):

So there's a non-skippable privacy agreement, new one that popped up. And so now there's a lot of heat and we're going to do an update on this because I know that there's going to be... There's new statements that are coming out. So next week we'll do another update on this. But what was agreed on when WhatsApp was purchased by Facebook is that data would remain private and not be shared with Facebook. And that happened in 2014 when the app was bought by Facebook.

Alexander McCaig (01:58):

Right.

Jason Rigby (01:59):

So Facebook has turned around and said, no we're collecting data, but we're not using it for nefarious purposes.

Alexander McCaig (02:08):

For advertising?

Jason Rigby (02:08):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (02:09):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (02:10):

So WhatsApp users will no longer be able to opt out of sharing their private data with Facebook, as users have started receiving a pop-up asking them to agree to the new terms of use or lose access to their account.

Alexander McCaig (02:20):

That is so like, so binary and so polarizing.

Jason Rigby (02:27):

Yeah. I think you're going to see the WhatsApp team, like I said is already... At first they had no comment and now they're starting to release because this has gained a lot of steam.

Alexander McCaig (02:38):

Elon Musk comes out. He said use signal. We use signal.

Jason Rigby (02:40):

Yeah. Yeah. We use signal.

Alexander McCaig (02:41):

It's a phenomenal encrypted messenger. It's a 501C-3 not-for-profit. Everything about it's frankly quite amazing.

Jason Rigby (02:48):

Yeah. So the terms of service and privacy policy detailing how WhatsApp is partnering with Facebook to offer deep integrations across all the Facebook owned products. So that's the whole idea of Facebook is as they begin to assimilate people into their ecosystem, then we begin to see this alternative. Like if you're using WhatsApp, you're using Instagram, you're using Facebook, using all these other... Their audience network is huge. People don't realize when you are doing ads on-

Alexander McCaig (03:17):

Facebook's number one.

Jason Rigby (03:18):

Yeah. So whenever you look at their ability... And I understand what they're doing. I don't think people mind the ad part of it, as much as they mind what's happening to my... And this is where WhatsApp needs to clarify. What's happening to my messages? What's happening to my videos? What's happening to my pictures?

Alexander McCaig (03:35):

Yeah. Where is this stuff going? How do you store it? How are you analyzing it? If you're not selling it, what are you doing with it? And if you're not selling that thing specifically, what are you doing from the analysis of all the data I gave you to create a new revenue stream? Why is it now, at this moment, you're choosing to lock things down?

Jason Rigby (03:55):

Yeah. And so the mandatory changes are set to take effect on February 8th, 2021. And if you just don't accept the new privacy policies before that, they will no longer be able to use the service. Data sharing with Facebook, business on the platform, and other third party services, one of the multiple changes to more expensive updated privacy policy. Among these changes, your data will now be used to show personalized ads under the new data sharing policy. I'm fine with the ad driven side. I get that. As a marketing person, I understand that. I've created a product. Now I have people spending time on it. If I can show a little ad on the bottom or whatever, I'm all for that.

Alexander McCaig (04:28):

Well, the thing is WhatsApp's free to use, right?

Jason Rigby (04:29):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (04:30):

Well they've realized that it's probably lacking in revenue.

Jason Rigby (04:33):

Right?

Alexander McCaig (04:33):

And they need to lock in that revenue stream. So they're going to know if someone signs a new terms and conditions, it's a guaranteed revenue stream for on that person.

Jason Rigby (04:42):

Now if they're using it for ads, that's fine. If they're using it... In my opinion. If they're using it to collect data, like you had mentioned with Skype and Microsoft where they're transcripting these voice calls and stuff like that and then turning around and selling that to third parties, now we've got an issue. So I'm pretty sure they're going to clarify. I don't think they want people globally to start coming off the platform.

Alexander McCaig (05:08):

No. Listen, they're not stupid.

Jason Rigby (05:12):

No, Facebook's not stupid.

Alexander McCaig (05:13):

They're not stupid.

Jason Rigby (05:14):

I know they've been getting a bad rap with him having to go to the Congress and sit there. But the people that are working at Facebook or some like Google and these others, they have the ability to get the latest and greatest talent.

Alexander McCaig (05:27):

Do you know the way I think about it? Terms and conditions. If I don't agree to something, it's probably a better route than someone saying, well I don't know if I agree to it, but I'm going to hit yes any way to use it.

Jason Rigby (05:45):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alexander McCaig (05:46):

I would probably prefer, I'm just thinking in our own stance, I would probably prefer the black and white approach. If you don't accept it, you just don't use it. That's it.

Jason Rigby (05:58):

Yeah. And I-

Alexander McCaig (05:59):

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's [crosstalk 00:06:01].

Jason Rigby (06:00):

But why wouldn't you... Here's a better option. Why wouldn't you put the most controversial five big points as bullet points have like just real quick bullet points and then, okay.

Alexander McCaig (06:14):

I agree. Why does the terms and condition have to be so convoluted?

Jason Rigby (06:17):

Because here's the problem, in the previous policy announced in July 2020, WhatsApp granted users 30 days to update their account settings and opt out of sharing their data with Facebook. So now the new policy here it is January 2021. This happens February-

Alexander McCaig (06:29):

If you're going to use it, you're sharing regardless.

Jason Rigby (06:30):

Yeah so because probably too many people went in there.

Alexander McCaig (06:33):

Yeah. Here's what I like. I like the terms and conditions and the black and white approach.

Jason Rigby (06:38):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (06:38):

But I do not like the thing where you're forced to share the information. What do you mean it's your information? This is not yours.

Jason Rigby (06:48):

Yeah, so-

Alexander McCaig (06:49):

Are you like forced to share every text message, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean signal, this other messaging app, operates with never having to look at your stuff, never looking at a log, never looking at a photo, a text, who it's getting texts to. It doesn't matter.

Jason Rigby (07:03):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (07:04):

But they still have such a beneficial business of communication.

Jason Rigby (07:07):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (07:08):

And people value the communication enough to donate to that 501C-3 not-for-profit. They don't have to say here's the terms and conditions, blah, blah, blah, it's black and white, you can't use the system, but if you are using it, we're going to take all your information and read it.

Jason Rigby (07:23):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (07:24):

I don't care how much you try and anonymize the info. These people, they don't have a damn clue. All they did was create a communication channel. But now WhatsApp is going beyond just communicative messaging.

Jason Rigby (07:35):

Yeah. So the new frequently asked questions on WhatsApp's website says this is what will be shared across the Facebook owned companies. So now that's another clarification. Is it just being shared across Facebook internally? Or is it going to third-party? Are they reselling that data to third parties? That's what I want to know.

Alexander McCaig (07:53):

Well think about this.

Jason Rigby (07:54):

We don't know that part.

Alexander McCaig (07:56):

It's going to Facebook owned companies. They own Instagram. Right?

Jason Rigby (07:59):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (07:59):

So why wouldn't I take my WhatsApp data and move it into Instagram and then help with retargeting ads in Instagram?

Jason Rigby (08:05):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (08:06):

What the heck?

Jason Rigby (08:07):

Yes, exactly.

Alexander McCaig (08:08):

Or within Facebook. And Facebook has different rules. So now that I've okayed the movement of data from one company to the next, well that other subset is doing its own sort of thing as well [inaudible 00:08:19].

Jason Rigby (08:18):

And Facebook, I don't understand when you have three different messengers, why wouldn't you just combine them all as one and then you could use that messenger across any of your platforms.

Alexander McCaig (08:25):

Yeah why do you have three [inaudible 00:08:27].

Jason Rigby (08:27):

So have a WhatsApp messenger that works with Facebook messenger and works with Instagram DMs?

Alexander McCaig (08:31):

Because each one is its own medium and each one has its own liability.

Jason Rigby (08:34):

Yes. Yeah. You're correct.

Alexander McCaig (08:35):

And the reason they're separating is because when you start moving data in between these, and if they're talking about they're able to move the data amongst Facebook companies, well how does data get treated on Instagram? Instagram is always listening to you.

Jason Rigby (08:48):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (08:48):

So if Instagram is always listening, and you're always typing something in on WhatsApp and sharing a picture, and then you're talking about on Facebook how you're interconnected with everybody and how your behaviors interconnect, think about what that picture looks like of the data created by an individual.

Jason Rigby (09:05):

And it really upset me yesterday, a politician just hammered Facebook. And this is going to be, and I know we'll both agree on this, just hammered Facebook saying that they created Facebook through their groups. You know, Facebook groups? Created what happened at the white house.

Alexander McCaig (09:20):

Okay that's [inaudible 00:09:21]. You know what that reminds me of that they were trying to pass that ruling where if there's like any sort of bullying or someone talking smack about someone's reputation publicly that not only can you sue the person saying it, but you can sue the platform for allowing them to do it. Does that mean we should sue Smith and Wesson?

Jason Rigby (09:40):

Right. Oh, some people would agree.

Alexander McCaig (09:43):

Should we sue Colt?

Jason Rigby (09:44):

Yeah. Or should we sue New York Times?

Alexander McCaig (09:46):

Yeah should we sue New York Times?

Jason Rigby (09:48):

Yeah. I mean we can-

Alexander McCaig (09:49):

It's like listen-

Jason Rigby (09:49):

How far do you want to take that?

Alexander McCaig (09:50):

Yeah how far are you going to go with it? You got to hold on for a second here. People responsible for what they do. The platforms are, if it's a good platform, it's totally agnostic. Anybody can use it. It's free for everyone to use. But it's their choice on how they use it.

Jason Rigby (10:05):

But an asshole's an asshole.

Alexander McCaig (10:07):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (10:08):

It's not going to, if you give an asshole free speech, which is what we do, especially here in the United States.

Alexander McCaig (10:16):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (10:16):

They're going to attract other assholes and then other assholes are going to do asshole things.

Alexander McCaig (10:20):

Yeah. If you think about it [inaudible 00:10:22].

Jason Rigby (10:23):

It's that's simple.

Alexander McCaig (10:23):

Everybody's got one.

Jason Rigby (10:25):

If we turn around and start restricting normal people, if there's a spectrum of normal-

Alexander McCaig (10:31):

If you call it normal [inaudible 00:10:32] normal.

Jason Rigby (10:32):

Because if we say no more Smith and Wesson's because, or no more Colts, not even for law enforcement or anything, because we have this issue or this issue, and I'm not getting into gun rights or anything. I'm just using that as an example. Or okay Fox news or CNN caused this to happen.

Alexander McCaig (10:49):

Should you just shut down CNN or Fox News?

Jason Rigby (10:51):

Yeah, exactly. This is a slippery slope that we're getting into.

Alexander McCaig (10:54):

Yeah. We need to build bridges, not walls.

Jason Rigby (10:57):

It's not Facebook's fault for what happened at the Capitol.

Alexander McCaig (11:00):

No. Did Facebook move the dude's leg down to DC and have it walk up the Capitol building steps?

Jason Rigby (11:07):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (11:08):

Or climb a wall? No. The person had to do it themselves.

Jason Rigby (11:10):

Yeah we talked earlier about the irrational monkeys and you had watched that documentary of where-

Alexander McCaig (11:16):

Jane Goodall down in Gambia.

Jason Rigby (11:17):

Yeah where these monkeys were just ripping each other apart and they're holding a stick and they're working themselves up emotionally and their teeth are showing and they're just getting all hyped up.

Alexander McCaig (11:26):

Well do you blame the stick or the monkey?

Jason Rigby (11:28):

Yeah, exactly.

Alexander McCaig (11:29):

Is it the sticks fault after it clubbed it's other chimpanzee friend?

Jason Rigby (11:34):

Yeah. So here-

Alexander McCaig (11:35):

I already see the meme right now. It's like, Facebook's the chimp, right?

Jason Rigby (11:39):

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (11:40):

And then WhatsApp is the club.

Jason Rigby (11:44):

And it's none of that. I'm more concerned about what they're doing with your personal data-

Alexander McCaig (11:50):

Yeah I want to know.

Jason Rigby (11:51):

... than anything else.

Alexander McCaig (11:52):

Jason, why can't they just tell me? Why is it such a hidden thing? Tell me what you're doing.

Jason Rigby (12:00):

For anyone, any of them.

Alexander McCaig (12:01):

For all companies. Not just, I'm not bashing on Facebook or anybody. It's just like, why can't you just be clear about what you're doing?

Jason Rigby (12:08):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (12:09):

Is it that big of a deal that you can't tell me?

Jason Rigby (12:11):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (12:12):

If you're Google and you're sharing information with the NSA, well let us know that you're piping our stuff through the NSA.

Jason Rigby (12:17):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (12:18):

What's the harm or the foul?

Jason Rigby (12:20):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (12:20):

Just let us know what you're doing. And then let us have the choice to leave. You know? I don't understand why this is such like a built up thing. It's so easy to be like, this is how we're operating.

Jason Rigby (12:35):

This is how we do it.

Alexander McCaig (12:36):

You don't have to get into your secret sauce, but just say that we're going to be analyzing this information.

Jason Rigby (12:41):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (12:41):

And it's getting used for these purposes.

Jason Rigby (12:43):

Yeah. They put it in their frequently asked questions. Here's what they're taking, saying they're taking. Account information such as phone numbers, service related information.

Alexander McCaig (12:51):

What is service related information?

Jason Rigby (12:52):

Yeah. That'll be interesting.

Alexander McCaig (12:53):

What does that mean?

Jason Rigby (12:54):

Yeah. Because we're going to do, like I said, we're going to do another episode on this.

Alexander McCaig (12:57):

I'm going to read their whole terms and conditions.

Jason Rigby (12:58):

Transaction data. If users use WhatsApp, pay, or purchase products through it. So the transaction and what they're buying. I get that part.

Alexander McCaig (13:06):

I guess someone's buying habits.

Jason Rigby (13:08):

Yeah. Information on how you interact with others, including businesses when using WhatsApp.

Alexander McCaig (13:11):

What does that mean how I interact with others?

Jason Rigby (13:14):

I know. Yeah. It needs to be-

Alexander McCaig (13:15):

None of this this stuff is clear.

Jason Rigby (13:17):

Mobile device information.

Alexander McCaig (13:19):

You're taking my IMI, Mac, everything, all that other stuff, mobile IPs, my geolocation data?

Jason Rigby (13:26):

This is the fun part.

Alexander McCaig (13:27):

Gosh.

Jason Rigby (13:28):

Listen to this part. Other information we collect or obtained upon notice to your based on your consent.

Alexander McCaig (13:35):

Other?

Jason Rigby (13:35):

Yeah. What's the other?

Alexander McCaig (13:37):

Is other... You know when I look at the universe? 10% of the universe that I see, everything that I see right here with my eyes that's material is 10% of the universe. The other 90% I don't see is 90% of the universe.

Jason Rigby (13:49):

They're sharing all the black matter.

Alexander McCaig (13:51):

What are... I don't... Jason, why does it have to be so nebulous? And I don't say that because of how that's a good metaphor for what's going on in the universe, but like why? Why does it lack so much clarity?

Jason Rigby (14:07):

Yeah. And this article says Facebook has claimed for years that it protects user privacy has never planned to change the way it handled data since its inception.

Alexander McCaig (14:13):

How do you-

Jason Rigby (14:13):

And this is what it says on the website. Respect for your privacy is coded into our DNA. And we built WhatsApp around the goal of knowing as little about you as possible. You don't have to give us your name and we don't ask for your email address. So now this new update-

Alexander McCaig (14:27):

Are you kidding me? Your IMEI is... If you go to things that ATF, DEA, they have little devices on their cars that read the IMEI and they know exactly who it's registered to through any sort of telecommunications company. Of course you don't need my name. You have every other possible identifier that tells you exactly who I am and where I'm going.

Jason Rigby (14:51):

Where do you have your name on Instagram?

Alexander McCaig (14:52):

Oh thank you for being so respectful for telling me you don't know what my name is. Dude this is just haunting.

Jason Rigby (15:00):

Yeah. Yeah. But all these data companies are doing the same thing.

Alexander McCaig (15:05):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (15:05):

I don't want us to just sit here and bash WhatsApp.

Alexander McCaig (15:08):

We're not bashing.

Jason Rigby (15:11):

This happens to be how we would like to have a conversation with WhatsApp or Facebook is to say, how can we help you build a bridge with your customers?

Alexander McCaig (15:17):

Yeah. How can we fix this political and social disparity that is happening? This soap opera that is currently happening between device manufacturer and people offering a free service online. There's so much going on. How do we mend this?

Jason Rigby (15:36):

Yeah. And it's like, if I'm Facebook, I want people to use my platforms and trust that I'm doing good.

Alexander McCaig (15:43):

That's the issue. Where's the trust.

Jason Rigby (15:45):

And I think every single one of those employees that are there at Facebook, or at least 90% of them, would agree. And I know they're a publicly traded company and they're trying to make money. There's this whole understanding of saying, how do we do that? And still be profitable. And I want people to understand that tartle.co is that answer.

Alexander McCaig (16:08):

We are that answer.

Jason Rigby (16:09):

Yeah, because you could set there Facebook, you could have a conversation with us, we could sit down, have a conversation with your users, and we could find out specifically valuable information that would help you make the decisions that you need to make.

Alexander McCaig (16:25):

You're going to love us. Keep talking.

Jason Rigby (16:26):

And for me, like what if all of a sudden on Instagram, there was an incentive for someone through the Instagram platform, you log on the Instagram platform and now instantly it's like, how much do you trust Instagram? You know? And then there's multiple questions. And then all of a sudden they receive maybe extra likes or they receive a bonus for... I mean, there's so many different ways you can incentivize somebody through the process. But at Tartle we could come and implement that process for you. And more than that, and here's what I want you to speak to Alex, more than that, creating trust creates loyalty.

Alexander McCaig (17:05):

Yeah. I'm going to start with that trust thing right here. I'm on the settings page at Tartle. And there's a tab that says privacy data use and sharing. And I wanted to make sure that this was so abundantly clear. Because unless you're educating people, unless you're empowering them, you're not going to be able to gain any trust. If you're saying things that are nebulous and they lack clarity, what are people supposed to think? It leaves too much up for interpretation. And people can't trust the hunch.

Jason Rigby (17:35):

We gotta get rid of these vague legal words.

Alexander McCaig (17:37):

I don't want people to trust. I want them to know for a fact.

Jason Rigby (17:40):

Oh yeah. Great. Yeah that's... Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (17:42):

Because trust is, it's a system of beliefs.

Jason Rigby (17:43):

I was thinking of like that emotional belief.

Alexander McCaig (17:46):

Yeah. No, no. And belief just saying that, oh, I want you guys to think we're doing the right thing. No, I want to show you we're doing the right thing.

Jason Rigby (17:52):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (17:52):

Let me read this. It says it is important to understand that your personal data contained in these data categories and or data packets are uploaded to Tartle servers after a data category and or data packet has been compiled and saved in the application. This allows for anonymous and private exchange of personal data between exchange parties. In absolute, Tartle will never share or sell your personal information to anyone or any third party as such. Anyone or any third party. In order for the Tartle global data exchange to function, your personal data is securely and anonymously stored on our servers in data categories and or data packets until deletion, omission, or otherwise by yourself, Tartle, or request of Tartle from the account holder via email to this address. You are in 100% control. We're telling you exactly how it's going to be stored.

Jason Rigby (18:50):

Yeah. And that data is not sold until you choose to sell it.

Alexander McCaig (18:54):

That's exactly r?ight. Is it that hard for us to be so clear about something? It's not like I'm going to hold a tool and wonder is it going to disappear? Is it going to do what it said it did?

Jason Rigby (19:03):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (19:04):

It's a damn pickax.

Jason Rigby (19:05):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (19:05):

You know exactly what it does. There's very specific laws and functions for the way this thing's designed. I am unsure about what the laws and functions are that are happening in Facebook and their other applications like WhatsApp. Now I'm unclear. Should I take this swinging thing? And is the top of it going to fly off? Where's it going to go? I don't know. What's the outcome. I know what the outcome is over here. I know what's going on with Tartle. I have no freaking clue what is happening with WhatsApp or any other company that comes in with that sort of nebulous terms and conditions for me.

Jason Rigby (19:36):

Yeah I don't even like the signal part of... I mean one thing I don't like is that all of a sudden, one of my friends hops on signal and then signal sends me a message saying, oh, so-and-so joined signal. Well, where'd you get that data from?

Alexander McCaig (19:47):

Yeah. So the way they... is a really interesting encrypted algorithm that can match them. Because your contacts-

Jason Rigby (19:55):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (19:55):

... you've already said, I want to allow signal to access my contacts.

Jason Rigby (19:58):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (19:59):

So in doing so, it's looking at it and it's looking for a match on both sides. It doesn't know anybody, whoever it is. It's just looking for that match between those numbers. So it can say, oh, this person in your phone book matches this.

Jason Rigby (20:10):

Because I want to know after Elon Musk put it on Twitter, which was funny, I had like eight people sign up with signal and it let me know. I just don't like that feature, personally.

Alexander McCaig (20:20):

Well, that's the only branch for people to be like, oh, okay.

Jason Rigby (20:23):

Oh, okay. Well, let me text them and say hey,

Alexander McCaig (20:25):

Now I can actually text them rather than be like, I got to get in contact with this guy first.

Jason Rigby (20:29):

Or it would be nice if it was... If I could upload my contacts and then it would show these people are in signal or not.

Alexander McCaig (20:35):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (20:35):

You know, on like another screen, not on that main screen where I have to actually go and delete that person.

Alexander McCaig (20:39):

Yeah. I agree.

Jason Rigby (20:40):

I just think that's a design issue.

Alexander McCaig (20:42):

That's a design issue.

Jason Rigby (20:43):

So WhatsApp let's have a conversation.

Alexander McCaig (20:46):

We'd love to talk you about it. I personally would love the clarity.

Jason Rigby (20:50):

And we love unity and we love building bridges.

Alexander McCaig (20:52):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (20:52):

So I'm not about, and I know Alex is this way too, any of these large data companies that want to speak to us and we could build a bridge and have unity and have an honest conversation without being political or without being dissident. None of divisive, none of those things we want to have.

Alexander McCaig (21:11):

We just like truthful things because it shouldn't be too hard to be truthful about what you're doing with other people's stuff.

Jason Rigby (21:16):

Yes. And we would love to have a conversation with anybody at Facebook. That'd be awesome.

Alexander McCaig (21:20):

Thanks. Facebook, WhatsApp.

Speaker 1 (21:31):

Thank you for listening to toggle cast with your hosts, Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanity steps into the future and the source data defines the path. What's your data worth?