Direct Primary Care - Proactive Revolutionary Decentralized High Functioning Healthcare That Is Affordable for All With Founder of Well Life ABQ Part 1

Speaker 1 (00:07):

Welcome to TARTLE Cast with your hosts, Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanities steps into the future and source data defines the path.

Alexander McCaig (00:25):

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to TARTLE Cast. We have a special guest here this morning from Well Life ABQ. If you are looking at the future of health care and really want to understand where it's headed and the possibilities that are there that are not completely draining to your entire wallet, and also beneficial to your company at the same time, then you would look to Well Life ABQ. And KC, the CEO, would love to dive into kind of the philosophy around what your company is looking to achieve, then how it executes upon that philosophy, and then really how you're using a lot of data to explain sort of that personal interaction with those individuals that come in and not have a function of sick care, but a function of healthcare.

KC (01:15):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (01:15):

Okay. Does that make sense?

KC (01:16):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alexander McCaig (01:17):

Very good. So just tell me about yourself. No, I'm not interested in that. So what's going on here? Let's talk about the philosophy [inaudible 00:01:24].

Jason Rigby (01:23):

She was a volley ball player in the army, right?

Alexander McCaig (01:25):

Yeah.

KC (01:27):

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:01:27].

Jason Rigby (01:29):

An officer in the army.

Alexander McCaig (01:30):

Well then we should be saluting.

Jason Rigby (01:32):

Yes, exactly.

Alexander McCaig (01:32):

Yeah.

KC (01:33):

[inaudible 00:01:33].

Alexander McCaig (01:35):

I mean, listen, if there's a direct connection between volleyball and you being at Well Life, I'd love to know and how that drives to the philosophy.

KC (01:41):

Completely unrelated.

Alexander McCaig (01:43):

All right. Perfect then, we don't even have to focus on it. So key [inaudible 00:01:47]...

Jason Rigby (01:47):

[inaudible 00:01:47], bro.

Alexander McCaig (01:49):

You're useless.

KC (01:50):

Can you turn his mic off?

Alexander McCaig (01:51):

I'm going to have to cut of off in a second, and he's in the background of the video too, so yeah. So tell me about Well Life. Okay, first of all, why did you call it Well Life?

KC (02:01):

Oh, I just called it Well Life because I was coming from another clinic and they already had all the marketing stuff, and so I just use that.

Alexander McCaig (02:07):

Oh, so you took it from the other clinic?

KC (02:09):

I got permission, but...

Alexander McCaig (02:10):

Oh okay, all right, that makes sense.

KC (02:11):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (02:12):

So you left this other clinic previously, and so, in leaving it, why was there a transition? What was the change here?

KC (02:18):

So that clinic is in Amarillo and I was moving back here, and having spent time in integrative functional medicine where it's not just about the prescription, or the referral, or just bouncing people here and there and all over the healthcare system, it was very much about like, "How can we help you be healthier?" And so I knew after learning all that stuff and my eyes were being opened, that I could never go back to normal healthcare. And so, when I moved back to Albuquerque, which is my home, I sat down with the doctor I was working with at the time and said, "I can't go back. Now I know what's out there." And he said, "Why don't you open your own clinic?"

Alexander McCaig (02:51):

Integrated functional medicine.

KC (02:53):

Correct. So instead of just prescriptions, we talk to people about their lifestyle and how that's impacting their health, and talking about their nutrition and where they should focus on. And we do advanced testing to help guide our treatment plans, and then supplements are involved in that too. So a lot of people's treatment plans are just all supplements and that's driven a lot by their desires and goals, but we have that in our toolbox.

Alexander McCaig (03:15):

So this sounds to me it's almost... It's allopathic.

KC (03:19):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alexander McCaig (03:20):

But you're almost blending it into, I don't want to call it holistic medicine, but you have a holistic perspective of all these other things that are inclusive and what it means to be a healthy individual.

KC (03:32):

Right. We're not taking stuff just from Western medicine, we're looking and saying, "Okay, well this, we can integrate this as well because there's a lot of evidence around this and this and this." And the funny thing about it is when something becomes very evidence-based, it gets moved over into the Western medicine column and it's acceptable at that point. But a lot of practitioners, like us, we've been doing it for years before it becomes normal. Like vitamin D. Five years ago, nobody tested vitamin D, and now it's pretty, pretty standard.

Alexander McCaig (04:00):

Okay. So then this is making a little bit of sense here. So let's use me as an example. Okay, so if you're going to do some integrative health assessment, how does that actually start off? So what data are you actually collecting in this process? So through a conversation, so what would you even start off with asking me?

KC (04:14):

It has a lot to do with what you're telling me about your health and how you feel. So that starts it, that starts the program. So let's say...

Alexander McCaig (04:20):

I feel pretty good.

KC (04:22):

So then we probably wouldn't dive in too deep because you feel pretty good so why would we fix something that's not broken?

Alexander McCaig (04:27):

So then if you don't fix something that's not broken, do we look at baselines then, at least collect that?

KC (04:31):

Oh, absolutely. We would do the standard labs. And then a lot of our patients really like to dive in deeper. And so they're like, "Oh, I hear you have this nutritional test, and it's very comprehensive." So some patients love it, even though they have no complaints about how they feel and energy levels and stuff. So they'll still do the test and we find stuff, absolutely.

Alexander McCaig (04:48):

Okay.

Jason Rigby (04:49):

Yeah, there's hormone tests.

KC (04:50):

Yeah, we [crosstalk 00:04:51].

Jason Rigby (04:51):

Toxicity test-

KC (04:53):

Yep, heavy metals [crosstalk 00:04:53].

Jason Rigby (04:53):

... for metals. Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (04:54):

Well you're always sitting in the studio crying so you probably needed that hormone [crosstalk 00:04:57].

KC (04:57):

Yes.

Jason Rigby (04:58):

I need that.

Alexander McCaig (04:58):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (05:00):

Too much aluminum, bro.

Alexander McCaig (05:01):

Yeah, way too much, yeah.

Jason Rigby (05:02):

Actually, I was good on all that, I was shocked.

KC (05:04):

Yeah. I'm shocked that Jason was [crosstalk 00:05:06]-

Alexander McCaig (05:05):

What deodorant?

KC (05:05):

... as well.

Alexander McCaig (05:06):

What deodorant are you using?

KC (05:06):

Do you use deodorant?

Jason Rigby (05:09):

Yeah, but I get it at Wholefoods.

KC (05:10):

Do you use antiperspirant or is it just [crosstalk 00:05:13]?

Jason Rigby (05:12):

I don't know. I have to look. It said hops on it. So I bought it.

Alexander McCaig (05:16):

I'm not even sure in episode-

Jason Rigby (05:17):

It was beer related.

Alexander McCaig (05:18):

... because you're a patient of Well Life, I'm not even sure where HIPAA starts and begins this conversation.

KC (05:23):

Oh, he's given me permission [inaudible 00:05:25].

Alexander McCaig (05:24):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (05:25):

No, but the question I have is why is Well Life's philosophy so different than regular healthcare?

Alexander McCaig (05:35):

Yeah.

KC (05:35):

Okay. So we have our philosophy.

Alexander McCaig (05:35):

What's that philosophy?

KC (05:36):

So we have our health care philosophy, but then we also have to think about this business model. How are we going to deliver this to patients? What's the best way to do that? Well, 80% of this integrated stuff isn't covered by insurance anyway so we stepped away from insurance and looked at it differently and found this direct primary care model. I shouldn't say we, I found this direct primary care model where somebody pays a flat fee every month and we're able to deliver so much more healthcare to them because we're not worried about insurance reimbursements, and, "Oh, I can't talk to you on the phone because I can't file a claim for that."

Alexander McCaig (06:07):

So when you say so much, so I go to this monthly subscription model essentially with Well Life, and you say there's so much more of a delivery that happens in this sort of decentralized effort where you're actually empowering the individual to take care of themselves rather than empowering an insurance company to take care of them?

KC (06:21):

Correct.

Alexander McCaig (06:21):

So tell me about what's the difference here?

KC (06:25):

So I think everyone listening can agree that insurance does not equal healthcare.

Alexander McCaig (06:29):

No.

KC (06:31):

They're not interested in your health care, they're interested in paying as little as possible while you're a plan member.

Alexander McCaig (06:38):

It's a reactive system.

KC (06:38):

Very. So just IUDs, for example, IUDs lasts about 10 years, it's birth control. Insurance companies hate paying for that, they're forced to pay for it because in 10 years, even five years, you're probably not going to be a plan member, and you're still benefiting from something. So they only like little stuff, they only like only what they have to do, the bare minimum.

Alexander McCaig (06:57):

If I get like a screw through my hand or something, like, "Pay once, get them out of here."

KC (07:01):

They have to handle that. Yeah. They're required, and if they weren't regulated by the states and stuff, they would get away with all kinds of things. But anyway, to answer your question. So when someone pays a flat fee and we pull them out of the insurance model, we're now able to say, "Yeah, come on in. We have space available because we're not fully booked because we leave space open for people to get in right away. When you come in, we're, again, not double booked. We're not running an hour behind." You come in. You very rarely spend any time in the waiting room. You're right into the exam room, and we call it more face time, less wait time. And when you're in front of me, your appointments last 45 minutes whereas a typical doctor's 15.

Alexander McCaig (07:42):

I got to tell you I'm accident prone, KC, and the amount of times I've been in a hospital, I guess, too many to count, or even to remember, depending on the situation, I maybe got three and a half minutes with a doctor. And then everything else was channeled through all these other people. I don't know what's going on and then I get some fat bill on the back end. Not that I wanted it, it's just the circumstances of life and getting injured, whatever that might be.

Alexander McCaig (08:09):

Now, here's something interesting that I'm looking at here. So at TARTLE we work with companies in healthcare, and now when you look at a hospital or any of those sort of large providers like that, they want to bill a medical code. They want to build as much as possible. The insurance company does not want to pay out. So right now I have this logical issue that is just compounding into this sort of stalemate that inhibits any sort of momentum for getting things done, actually keeping people healthy or trying to help them in any way, shape or form. So that's the first issue. But from the way I'm looking at this here, you've looked at the model and said, "Well, forget the insurance, let's look at the individual for the benefit of the individual. Let's put them first before we look at the profits of our company."

KC (08:56):

For the routine chronic care management outside of the hospital.

Alexander McCaig (09:00):

No, I understand that. I mean, emergency room's an emergency room, but everything else.

KC (09:03):

Yeah, healthcare is not expensive. And anybody listening is probably thinking, "Well, of course it's expensive, look at the cost of everything." But it's actually because we don't have price transparency, it's because the insurance claims are marking things up because nobody knows what anything costs.

Alexander McCaig (09:18):

Now, do you share that data, especially that pricing data, to these people that come in and say, "Okay, if I am looking at some sort of chronic long-term care, will you show me what this cost is going to break down to?

KC (09:28):

Oh, absolutely, we're totally against surprise bills, we're all about transparency.

Alexander McCaig (09:33):

And now, do you show it comparatively to almost what you would be paying by going to the hospital?

KC (09:36):

Sometimes we can, just it's a little case by case, but let's say somebody needs a certain prescription. Our system is designed, we'll pull up the prescription, and our system will actually tell us what the average cost is, the pharma price. And so we can tell a patient in very real time, like, "If you get that prescription through us, it's going to cost you this much. If you go to the pharmacy, it's going to cost you this much." Or I'll tell people like, "Hey, I know you have insurance, but if you pay, they tell you it's going to cost you more than this dollar amount, let us know because we can fill it for this dollar amount."

Alexander McCaig (10:05):

Right.

KC (10:08):

And these are people with...

Jason Rigby (10:08):

[inaudible 00:10:08], bro. Listen to...

KC (10:08):

These are people with insurance that I can [crosstalk 00:10:10] save them money.

Alexander McCaig (10:10):

Really?

KC (10:10):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (10:12):

Do some examples of how the cost differences, if you go just pay for it out of your pocket [inaudible 00:10:17].

KC (10:18):

So recently we had a patient on a blood pressure medication, very common one, a very cheap one. And we were able to get it for her for about $12 for 90 days. And I said, "If you go to the pharmacy and you pay more than that..." Well, if her copay is $10 times three, because it's a 90 day thing, that's $30 every 90 days and we're saying, "It'll cost you $12 here."

Alexander McCaig (10:38):

So by removing perverse incentive structures of insurance and hospitals, then billing and not wanting to pay out, opening up the efficiencies of people for it to actually get to that resource to make themselves healthy, whatever that prescription may be, you have the ability to decrease the cost dramatically beyond what their insurance would already pay and having to ask for any sort of reimbursement, and they're willing to pay that out of pocket because of that change in cost.

KC (10:59):

And they're done, it's paid for, they've got their prescription. They're done.

Alexander McCaig (11:02):

Okay. So model, that seems [inaudible 00:11:04].

KC (11:05):

And they don't even have to go to the pharmacy to pick it up.

Alexander McCaig (11:07):

I'm going to throw this [crosstalk 00:11:08].

Jason Rigby (11:07):

Yeah, [inaudible 00:11:08] I just ran in and grabbed it from your nurse practitioner, the prescription, it was laying there.

Alexander McCaig (11:13):

That's fantastic.

KC (11:15):

Oh right, yeah, we just had it waiting. Jason recently filled a prescription and it was just waiting for him and he picked up. We can mail it too.

Jason Rigby (11:19):

It was my psych meds, bro.

Alexander McCaig (11:20):

Yeah, I bet it is.

KC (11:22):

Heavy [crosstalk 00:11:22].

Alexander McCaig (11:22):

It's all those lithium pills for him.

KC (11:24):

Heavy duty.

Alexander McCaig (11:24):

Big time lithium pills-

Jason Rigby (11:26):

[crosstalk 00:11:26].

Alexander McCaig (11:27):

... for Jason. Yeah.

Jason Rigby (11:27):

I need it all.

Alexander McCaig (11:28):

So this is fantastic. So you go through all of these different reports and studies for individuals. You look at data here in two different formats. So I want to break this down into both these formats. Let's start on the first one. How do you choose, when looking at data, if there's research being done on a specific procedure, or a diagnostic thing for the human body, whatever that might be, what's the decision mark or benchmark for you, as company, to say, "Okay, we should start using this sort of testing." What is the data that you're looking at, and how do you say, "Is this legitimate? Does this make logical sense for us to adopt this into our workflows?"

KC (12:04):

I don't think I understand the question.

Alexander McCaig (12:05):

Okay. So you were talking about, there was people [crosstalk 00:12:07].

Jason Rigby (12:08):

Let's do hormone testing.

KC (12:08):

I'm very simple person.

Jason Rigby (12:10):

Let's do hormone testing. So what would make you check people's hormones? What's the reason because the regular doctor, they're not going to do that unless you...

Alexander McCaig (12:21):

How do we know it's the right test? How do we know it's the right way to [crosstalk 00:12:23]?

Jason Rigby (12:23):

Oh, I see what you're saying, yeah.

Alexander McCaig (12:23):

Okay. So something's going on in China, but it takes 30 years for us to adopt it over here in terms of our medical practices. What sort of benchmark... How are you looking at data outside of even the research field before you come over and then start to translate the information you're getting on your patients back to them?

KC (12:41):

That's a big question. So really things filter into my brain just like anybody else, everything's yelling at you through email and social media and stuff, and there's some trusted labs that I have that I go to their webinars, my nurse practitioner goes to their webinars, and we'll incorporate that stuff. If there's evidence behind it, we start to bring it into our practice and offer it.

Alexander McCaig (13:03):

And how much evidence is what I'm trying to get at. So even if... Yeah.

KC (13:09):

So the labs that I trust, if they're offering it, I'll probably offer because I trust them.

Alexander McCaig (13:13):

Okay. So just through their own...

Jason Rigby (13:15):

There's also a direct primary care, because that's what this is called, there's a network of them. And in that network, they're sharing information amongst each other. So it's almost like blockchain.

Alexander McCaig (13:26):

So you're saying that there's a benefit to sharing data amongst yourselves.

KC (13:29):

Oh, absolutely.

Alexander McCaig (13:31):

Oh, that's really interesting.

KC (13:32):

We compare notes all the time.

Alexander McCaig (13:33):

Yeah.

KC (13:34):

Yeah, absolutely.

Alexander McCaig (13:35):

As you should.

KC (13:35):

But let me clarify one thing. So the integrative health model is what we deliver. Direct primary care is how we deliver it.

Jason Rigby (13:42):

Oh, okay.

KC (13:42):

So they're very different concepts.

Jason Rigby (13:44):

Okay, explain those [inaudible 00:13:45].

KC (13:45):

Because not all direct primary care... Some direct primary clinics are completely Western medicine, they don't offer any of this other stuff.

Alexander McCaig (13:50):

Well, can you please separate the what and the how then for us? Well, not just for us, but for all the people in 175 countries that are listening to this.

KC (13:55):

Right, so I've chosen because I've learned and my eyes have been open in terms of integrative medicine, that I can bring in all this other stuff into how I deliver healthcare, and what I deliver. Direct primary care is the model that allows me to deliver that-

Alexander McCaig (14:09):

Understood.

KC (14:10):

... the patient.

Alexander McCaig (14:11):

Okay. With that subscription base?

KC (14:13):

Because in a 15 minute appointment, I can't go over advanced labs, I can't dive in deep. I can't keep you within my clinic because I just need to refer you out because I don't have time to deal with your complicated thyroid.

Alexander McCaig (14:25):

That's typically what happens.

KC (14:26):

That's typically what happens, but in the direct primary care model, it allows me and the patient to have this perfect storm, really.

Jason Rigby (14:33):

So a legitimate doctor-patient relationship-

KC (14:36):

An actual relationship.

Jason Rigby (14:37):

... through that model of direct primary care.

KC (14:39):

And we so very rarely, we only refer out if we really, we're out of our realm. We're like, "We really don't know what to do with you next." That's the only time we refer you out. We have tried everything up to that point. So an example would be a patient in with a mole. Well, it takes too long to remove that mole, so a lot of times the primary care clinic won't remove the mole, they'll send you to dermatology, but it is completely within our scope of practice too remove the mole.

Alexander McCaig (15:02):

Yeah. I mean, I would've cut the thing off with a knife myself.

KC (15:04):

Right, a lot of patients would do that.

Alexander McCaig (15:05):

Yeah.

KC (15:06):

So we're just going to remove the mole, and usually we can remove the mole at that appointment because we have plenty of time.

Alexander McCaig (15:11):

That's amazing.

KC (15:12):

We don't even make you come back.

Jason Rigby (15:12):

Think about the cost though to go to a dermatologist-

KC (15:14):

Right.

Jason Rigby (15:15):

... from that one visit.

Alexander McCaig (15:16):

Just logistics and then getting it set up, and then the amount of time wasted in between.

KC (15:19):

If the company is paying for all this healthcare, if they're a direct primary care member, they've put their employees on our program, there was no copay, there was no claim file to see us, and we have not sent them to terminology so now there's no specialist claim either, we've removed the mole, they're out the door, there was nothing, no claim filed, the employer didn't pay anything, neither did the employee.

Alexander McCaig (15:41):

So you got economic efficiencies. You can typically get things done day of in that specific appointment, and then now let's talk about, I've removed that mole. Okay. Do you guys do analysis on that stuff?

KC (15:52):

Oh yeah. Send it to the lab.

Alexander McCaig (15:54):

Okay, so you send it to the lab.

KC (15:55):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (15:55):

How many data points typically come back on something like this?

KC (15:57):

So we send it off to the lab and it's $65 to do pathology, simple pathology, so that's what it's going to cost. Whereas if somebody is going through the insurance thing, I have no idea what surprise bill you're going to get three months, two years later.

Alexander McCaig (16:10):

Interesting.

KC (16:11):

For that stupid mole when it's $65. And if the company's paying for it, now they're paying $65 instead of $200 because we never filed a claim, we just said, "Company at $65, that's what it's going to cost you."

Jason Rigby (16:24):

Then this is really, really interesting, as a company because I mean there's two CEOs here, but explain the whole... When you go into a company and you go over their insurance and what they don't realize that they're paying for and how, I want to use the F-word but I won't, how screwed up the insurance is.

KC (16:44):

Oh, the insurance, they've trained us very, very, very well as consumers that we need them, that we need them for routine stuff. Where, when we have car insurance, we don't expect the car insurance to change our tires or change our oil.

Alexander McCaig (17:00):

I change my own oil.

KC (17:01):

Right. That's routine stuff, we don't need insurance for routine stuff. We don't.

Alexander McCaig (17:06):

And if I go to use it for routine, it's going to cost me a fortune.

KC (17:08):

If you go where?

Alexander McCaig (17:09):

You use that regular insurance for routine stuff, it's going to cost me a fortune.

KC (17:12):

And good luck going to a doctor's office that's not a direct primary care model and say, "How much is this going to cost me?" In fact, my mom, I just took my mom to Colorado for a doctor's appointment and she had to go in and she had to pay two fees because one of the games that clinics plays is they're tied to a hospital, and so they can charge a facility fee.

Alexander McCaig (17:30):

Sure.

KC (17:30):

So she had to pay, it was over $400 to see this doctor for 25 minutes.

Alexander McCaig (17:39):

Really? That's multiple months of grocery bill for people.

KC (17:44):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (17:44):

For some even just small, even poor demographic families, like, come on, are you kidding me?

KC (17:48):

And it really frustrated me at that clinic too because I'm like, "I know if you file a claim for this visit, if you were to file a claim, you'd get maybe 150 and they have the audacity... They didn't have a cash price, they had the audacity to charge her that much. And the front desk people, they don't know, they're like, "Oh, it's going to cost you this much. Sorry."

Alexander McCaig (18:06):

So you've inverted this economic model with Well Life. That's well and good. Now so what I want to understand is the data is inherently so important for actually keeping people healthy, and how you explain to them what that data means. For so long, it doesn't matter what the company is, whether it's healthcare, tech, I don't care, no one explains what's going on with the data. So if you're actually in the process of collecting and analyze something, can you give me some sort of hypothetical situation of collection and analysis, and then reporting that back to me? I want to know what that is like and how you guys are observing that data and using it.

KC (18:43):

An actual lab [crosstalk 00:18:45].

Jason Rigby (18:45):

Use mine on...

KC (18:46):

Yeah, so Jason did a hormone test, mostly just because he's crazy, and so we wanted to see if... No, I'm just kidding.

Jason Rigby (18:56):

That is true.

KC (18:56):

No. So we have the hormone test and I wish I had it in front of me because it is so in-depth, I mean, it's eight pages long. Normally when you get a hormone test they're like, "Here's your testosterone level, here's your estrogen level. Have a nice day." That's it. Ours is looking at, "Here's all your levels, here they are in relation to each other. Here's how you metabolize those hormones." Which is very, very, very important for your health. And then now I know, "Okay, this is how you metabolize your hormones. This is how I can best support you. Whether you're replacing your hormones or you're not, just using your own indogenous, this is how I can best support you."

KC (19:29):

So a lot of times men particularly will come to me for testosterone replacement, but by the time we go through the test, I'm like, "You really don't need replacement, we just need to block this little pathway here, and it'll stop your testosterone from turning into estrogen, and that'll raise your testosterone level." And they feel great. I've had people just feel great and we didn't have to [crosstalk 00:19:45].

Jason Rigby (19:45):

Instead of jacking their testosterone up-

KC (19:46):

We didn't just throw a test...

Jason Rigby (19:46):

... to like 1,200.

KC (19:46):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (19:48):

Because there's guys that are listening to this right now that's having that. They're just going in and getting injections or pellets or whatever. Because you had a patient that was that way, their testosterone levels were through the roof.

KC (19:58):

Oh my gosh, yeah, I have so many stories of that.

Jason Rigby (20:00):

Yeah, through the roof and they're metabolizing it-

KC (20:03):

All wrong.

Jason Rigby (20:03):

... yeah, all wrong. So she's like, especially on the estrogen side, [inaudible 00:20:07] like me, I had high estrogen, of course you hear me cry and see me cry all the time, Alex.

Alexander McCaig (20:11):

Yeah, that's fine, yeah [inaudible 00:20:12].

Jason Rigby (20:13):

No, but I had high estrogen so it's like, "Let's get the estrogen levels down." And she did it with supplementation.

KC (20:18):

Yep, right.

Jason Rigby (20:18):

Which is that's taboo and were talking about supplements, like vitamins.

Alexander McCaig (20:23):

Interesting. Yeah. What I think is nice here is that you're not perversely incentivized to bill, you are incentivized to educate.

KC (20:33):

I'm incentivized to educate. I'm incentivized to keep patients healthy because the healthier you are, the less you need us. We're both on the same thing. You want to need us less and we want to keep you healthy so you need us less.

Alexander McCaig (20:44):

So if I understand this contextually, correct, you are meeting a stranger, they are allowing testing and data to be produced, they're essentially sharing that information with you. You are analyzing it and translating it back to them for their benefit?

KC (21:01):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (21:01):

That sounds like a model for absolutely everything else that needs to happen everywhere across the globe with data. Does it not?

KC (21:06):

[inaudible 00:21:06] data.

Alexander McCaig (21:06):

Doesn't that make sense?

KC (21:08):

Absolutely.

Alexander McCaig (21:08):

Well, you guys are extremely data oriented. You wouldn't be able to tell them anything if you didn't collect any data, you'd be staring at the person, "Oh, you're healthy, all right, cool, see you on your way."

KC (21:15):

Right. I mean, so often with standard labs, somebody comes in and says, "I'm this or that." And we get labs we're like, "You're fine."

Alexander McCaig (21:22):

Yeah.

KC (21:22):

They're like, "But I'm not fine." "Well, your labs say you're fine."

Alexander McCaig (21:25):

Right.

KC (21:25):

"But I'm not fine." And so that continues on and they never get anywhere.

Alexander McCaig (21:30):

Correct.

KC (21:30):

Whereas they come to us and we're like, "Okay, well your labs show this, but let's get some more information. Let's get more data and see if we can find something." And gosh, almost all the time, very rarely have we ordered a more advanced test and found nothing. I can't even think of a single.

Alexander McCaig (21:46):

No, that's amazing. And honestly if you consider that person is the consumer of your product or service, for them, they have a perspective of value. And from what they were being told, it's like, "Okay, I'm glad something [inaudible 00:22:01] observed the mechanics of my body, whatever it might be biologically is saying that I'm fine, but I don't feel fine."

KC (22:07):

Don't feel fine.

Alexander McCaig (22:07):

That goes for all things within any sort of consumer behavior. And I think that's been missed, and the fact that you're bringing the bridge with the data and also asking the person, "Well, what is really going on with you?" Now we actually have a flavor of that situation that is really tuned in specific to that person. Whereas before it's just like, you fall into a category of like, "Labs are fine. See you later. I don't need to deal with you."

Jason Rigby (22:28):

Yeah, it's first...

Alexander McCaig (22:28):

You're in a bucket.

Jason Rigby (22:29):

It's first-person data. So I know you probably have an example, of course you can't mention any names or anything, but where somebody appeared to be fine, but they kept telling you that they weren't feeling good, and then you found something.

KC (22:41):

It's usually a nutritional deficiency. Sometimes it's hormones, but yeah.

Jason Rigby (22:44):

Nutritional deficiency?

KC (22:45):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (22:45):

Like me with my low vitamin B?

KC (22:48):

Right.

Jason Rigby (22:49):

Would that be something? Yeah, it's very, very low. So I have to take vitamin B supplements.

KC (22:53):

Right.

Jason Rigby (22:53):

Yeah. So, which is a deficiency, but I would have never known that, but what are some of the things, because I think this is really interesting, what are some of the things that you see that can cause... Studies have shown that can cause cancer something if we don't fix it now.

KC (23:10):

Oh, so I'm my own patient on that one. So I had done the hormone test that we offer and it showed that I had really high oxidative stress and very low glutathione levels, which is a major antioxidant.

Alexander McCaig (23:23):

Yeah, of course, yeah.

KC (23:24):

So I was completely asymptomatic.

Alexander McCaig (23:25):

Chicken noodle soup, glutathione.

KC (23:26):

I don't have cancer, that I know of. And so here I had this situation where my body was showing tons of stress, whether... And at the time I was under a lot of emotional stress, but physical stresses, so people who exercise a lot, they can have some oxidative stress as well, so they'd be healthy, but they'd still be way over on the oxidative stress markers. And the oxidative stress marker that I'm talking about is called 8-hydroxy, and it's an actual marker of DNA damage, DNA damage is actually happening. And then it also showed that I didn't have antioxidant to help myself. I didn't have enough. And so I started supplementing that antioxidant, and I flipped that now, so now my oxidative stress is down and I have plenty of glutathione.

Alexander McCaig (24:03):

So if I understand correctly, you have preserved the cellular life and not allow it to ferment internally within the body because of oxidative stress?

KC (24:11):

Right. I mean, I was headed down a path of cancer and you can't do studies showing like, "Oh, this person's going to get cancer." It's hard to show preventative studies that like how do you know that person would have gotten cancer in the first place?

Alexander McCaig (24:20):

You don't, but-

KC (24:20):

I don't.

Alexander McCaig (24:21):

... you can...

KC (24:22):

But I'm sure as heck...

Alexander McCaig (24:24):

I don't even want to have to show that [inaudible 00:24:25], I'm worried about [crosstalk 00:24:26].

KC (24:26):

I'm just like, "Yeah. Not going to let that continue-

Alexander McCaig (24:28):

Yeah, correct.

KC (24:29):

... [inaudible 00:24:29] my situation that I had.

Alexander McCaig (24:31):

See, and this is half the issue that I've looked at with data around social determinants of health is that it's all reactive data.

KC (24:36):

Totally.

Alexander McCaig (24:36):

None of this stuff is actually proactive to say, "Well, how are we trying to keep these people healthy before you even know this is the placement of them becoming diseased or sick?"

KC (24:43):

Right. I mean, vitamin C alone. The people that fight over whether vitamin C is helpful or not, it's just unbelievable to me, it's an antioxidant, it's vitamin, take it.

Alexander McCaig (24:54):

If I don't need any more of it I'll pee it out.

KC (24:56):

Right. It shouldn't be so much drama around it. A doctor that I'm a colleague with, he rounds in the hospital, he's an attending, and he ordered vitamin C for some COVID patients. He got six phone calls, he had two vitamin C infusions for two COVID patients that were hospitalized so they were severe. He got six phone calls. But if he prescribes morphine, he gets no phone calls.

Alexander McCaig (25:18):

That doesn't make any sense.

KC (25:19):

It's horrible.

Alexander McCaig (25:20):

Last I checked, we bring morphine on top of Everest, if I'm freezing to death. You know what I mean?

KC (25:26):

Yeah, right.

Alexander McCaig (25:26):

But I can't get some vitamin C that was-

KC (25:27):

Vitamin C [inaudible 00:25:28].

Alexander McCaig (25:28):

... synthetically derived from whatever.

KC (25:30):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (25:30):

Yeah.

KC (25:31):

[crosstalk 00:25:31].

Jason Rigby (25:32):

Yeah. That's crazy.

Alexander McCaig (25:33):

"This guy's eating oranges, somebody get on the phone right now."

KC (25:36):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (25:36):

"I prescribed him 30 tangerines a day. We can't have that."

KC (25:40):

"Yeah, no, we need to not prevent. That's not going to be okay."

Jason Rigby (25:42):

So why does it benefit a company to use direct primary care?

KC (25:48):

Okay. So their employees are healthier, just when we've kind of talked about that. So we're trying to keep their employees healthier. So just by that alone, they're more likely to be at work, less likely to be sick, be more productive, just that. We haven't even saved the company money yet, and I can, but I've just made their employees healthier.

Alexander McCaig (26:04):

Okay.

KC (26:04):

Just by a better primary care model.

Alexander McCaig (26:08):

And do you think you have a stronger ethical stance or even a stronger moral stance than you'd typically find at a regular hospital?

KC (26:14):

So I don't like to bash my colleagues, but a lot of my colleagues are trapped in this other system and they don't know how to get out, they don't know that this other thing exists. And so all they're trying to do is survive the day.

Alexander McCaig (26:24):

Got it.

KC (26:24):

And I've worked in these clinics and it's awful. You're 15 minutes behind, somebody wanting to ask you more in depth questions about stuff, and you just don't have the time. You're like, "You get one problem today. I can only address one problem."

Alexander McCaig (26:35):

Isn't that amazing, you can't actually meet the people where they're at in that old sort of system. But when you begin to essentially decentralize this market and invert a lot of that billing model that you would typically find, you can increase that quality of care to those individuals.

KC (26:48):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (26:48):

You can explain to people frankly what medical data means so they don't go on WebMD and be like, "Holy crap, I got a brain tumor." And that's what everyone does. Everything you go on WebMD, "I got a brain tumor, brain tumor, brain tumor."

KC (26:57):

Yeah, they have the check their boxes to make sure that they don't get sued [crosstalk 00:27:00].

Alexander McCaig (27:00):

But that's not useful-

KC (27:00):

It's not useful.

Alexander McCaig (27:01):

... because it's not a proper filter. So you, within your service model, act as a filter to help translate that data.

KC (27:07):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (27:08):

So for instance, if I'm using the TARTLE marketplace, I download my entire EHR record, okay. And I don't know if you guys done anything with genome sequencing or anything [inaudible 00:27:16] that, but I also do a food survey study on me. And then I give you other behaviors and I tell you about the quality of my mental state. I give you that data. You can essentially take that data, analyze it and translate it, and then bring it back to me and say, "This is what we found because you chose to take your data and share it with us." Much like you coming into our Well Life ABQ and saying, "Hey, I want to run tests on me. And then I need you to give me some sort of insight so I understand what's going on with me. That's what I want to know. Frankly, I don't care about the statistical probability of me being in a bucket and you associating me with a large group of people, I just want to know about me right here, my own statistics, not the statistics of that group."

KC (27:58):

Right. Of what I could find on WebMD.

Alexander McCaig (27:59):

That's precisely correct. I am worried about me. The flavor of me, my priority is my health. I don't need the relation to everybody else's health. Let me focus on this.

KC (28:09):

Yeah. So somebody has this symptom, they can look that up and they can find everything online, and they have this symptom, and they have this symptom. But the hardest part about delivering healthcare is diagnosis. So everyone can look up, "Oh, I have this diagnosis. This is the treatment." But it's very hard to take, "I have this symptom and this symptom and this symptom." Put it together and it's like, "This is your diagnosis. Now we can move forward with how can we best help you."

Alexander McCaig (28:31):

So you're taking multiple, essentially disparate points that were otherwise separate from another, you've brought them together into a full body picture, you've integrated these things.

KC (28:40):

I have.

Alexander McCaig (28:40):

Okay. And then you deliver the context of...

KC (28:43):

Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Alexander McCaig (28:43):

No, that's fine. You deliver the context of that integration directly to those people.

KC (28:47):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (28:48):

So that's important. So you've actually taken multiple points of datasets and come to a real picture about what's going on.

KC (28:54):

Correct.

Alexander McCaig (28:54):

Okay.

KC (28:55):

So that's how...

Alexander McCaig (28:56):

Did you want to go cut that off? No, it's fine.

Jason Rigby (28:59):

[crosstalk 00:28:59] cut off here in a second?

KC (29:00):

I don't know. Can you shut it... It should cut off in a second.

Alexander McCaig (29:02):

No, that's fine [crosstalk 00:29:03].

KC (29:03):

I can't guarantee it won't happen again.

Alexander McCaig (29:04):

Yeah. That's fine. Could we throw it on do not disturb?

KC (29:07):

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to [crosstalk 00:29:09].

Alexander McCaig (29:09):

We'll leave a little pause on the show right now.

Jason Rigby (29:11):

Let's stop right there and we'll just do another one.

Alexander McCaig (29:13):

Yeah. Part two coming right up.

KC (29:15):

[inaudible 00:29:15].

Speaker 1 (29:15):

Thank you for listening to TARTLE Cast with your hosts, Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanity steps into the future and source data defines the path. What's your data worth?