What Is Energy: A Guide to Understanding the Theory of Data Part 3

Alexander McCaig (00:00):

I think we just called in every Aboriginal from Uluru. Uluru. In case you don't know that is a giant, holy rock plateau looking thing out in Australia.

Jason Rigby (00:20):

I know that there's a machine-learning project that's trying to take all the languages from Australia and put it ... How many Aboriginal languages are there?

Alexander McCaig (00:28):

Aboriginal languages?

Jason Rigby (00:29):

Yeah. There's a ton because I know that some tribes don't even understand the language from another tribe, because it's so unique.

Alexander McCaig (00:37):

363-

Jason Rigby (00:38):

That's when I saw. Yeah, it was [crosstalk 00:00:40].

Alexander McCaig (00:39):

363 languages, belonging to 28 families. [crosstalk 00:00:46] Excuse me?

Jason Rigby (00:47):

[crosstalk 00:00:47] ... language.

Alexander McCaig (00:47):

If you think about that ratio, you go into your own household, you wouldn't even know what anyone's saying. Your siblings would be speaking in a totally different language, but that's your choice, right? If I want to speak this language, that's my sovereignty over ... The Aborigines have a decentralized structure of their own little micro-culture. It's really amazing. They do interact, but maybe not understand, but they still live in harmony.

Jason Rigby (01:12):

Well, the beautiful part about them is the continuity that spans throughout all of them is their oneness with nature.

Alexander McCaig (01:19):

Yeah. They understand the aspect of what it means to be a human being and be on this planet.

Jason Rigby (01:22):

So they may not be able to communicate in a language, but I guarantee you, if they went out hunting or they were going on the land, getting bees or whatever it may be, honey, they would all be able to do that.

Alexander McCaig (01:31):

Well then, let's about, going back to Robert Breedlove. This is our Part Three here.

Jason Rigby (01:35):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (01:35):

And he was talking about energy and sovereignty and digital, creative destruction. He put on this chart here, and you were speaking about Bitcoin, but I think this expands beyond this, because this is about decentralized aspects. He's talking about the fifth layer. And it starts with the link, the bottom layer.

Jason Rigby (01:54):

This could be for data, just as well.

Alexander McCaig (01:56):

This could be for data, but I'm just using the context of the aboriginals. What's their link? Nature.

Jason Rigby (02:01):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alexander McCaig (02:02):

Nature being a human being. They will walk paths along electromagnetic lines or outputs in Australia and they'll wear those paths on their bare feet. They have almost, like a scout you would call it, that's leading the tribe where they need to walk. And they use that. That's their network. But we use the internet. Right? I'm doing these bridges here. Right? And then their transport.

Alexander McCaig (02:30):

So we're thinking about communication online, whether it's a chat, messages, whatever it might be. But for them, it's my transporter on my feet. I'm going to walk where I need to go. And I'll speak whatever my language is. Right? And then for application, which is our next layer, our fourth one ... In the chart here, it says, "deliver software files and applications." That's one tribe meeting up to the next. Let's bring our resources, our knowledge, our understanding. Let's share it with you. Let's bring our data. Let's share it with you. And then the very last part of it is the value transfer. What was gained from this? We became knowledgeable. We've understood each other better. We've understood our link to nature better.

Jason Rigby (03:13):

What was gained from this? I like that.

Alexander McCaig (03:16):

That's what it is.

Jason Rigby (03:16):

What was gained from this? And we talked about this earlier with Tartle offline. That's the ability to create value.

Alexander McCaig (03:23):

Correct.

Jason Rigby (03:24):

And have an exchange of value.

Alexander McCaig (03:25):

So we have all these shifting decentralized nodes interacting with one another. There's no central authority, but they're all sharing value. Rather than having the central authority determine, "Oh, this is what's valuable." And then sending it out to the nodes. The nodes can freely talk to one another. They don't need a central authority.

Jason Rigby (03:41):

Yeah. And I like how he goes back to first principle philosophies and he talks about first principle of social economics. And he says this, "Man must act. Action requires energy and implies purpose. As all conscious decision-making involves the attempted achievement of an aim." So we have energy, with purpose. We have conscious decision-making, and then we have an achievement of an aim.

Alexander McCaig (04:09):

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:04:11].

Jason Rigby (04:10):

And you talked about aim when it came to forging a sword and making a sword-

Alexander McCaig (04:16):

Oh, I have used metaphor before. If you think about a blacksmith, and people use this thing, you got to strike when the iron's hot.

Jason Rigby (04:24):

Right.

Alexander McCaig (04:25):

Okay? So if the iron is hot, you have to have a very focused, precise hit coming down to form this metal, whether this metal is an idea or data. You need to come down and you have to articulate it with a thought or an action, every single time. You have to do it over and over and over and over. But the end goal, the aim, is to have this sword, or some sort of tool that will help you progress further.

Jason Rigby (04:48):

Because you have this solid piece of metal that is heated, with no form, no purpose. And this is what he says. He says, "The aims of man are always towards the alleviation of anxiety (what Austrian economists call "want satisfaction" are "reduced uneasiness.")"

Alexander McCaig (05:04):

Right. So-

Jason Rigby (05:06):

[crosstalk 00:05:06] ... anxiety here.

Alexander McCaig (05:06):

Yeah. So if you're dealing with the world and you're dealing with unknowns, you try and create stability. Okay? If I'm worried about getting attacked by another tribe, I'm going to make a sword. I need to find a way to defend myself. If I'm worried that I'm not getting value for my data, I need to sign up on Tartle. Right? These are these actions that you take. So if you have a worry, where's the solve? And if there isn't a solve, create one. Lucky for you, we have a data solve. That's done, but-

Jason Rigby (05:29):

But, through technology and through efficiency, you've created a tool. The blacksmith has created a tool that can be used for further progress.

Alexander McCaig (05:42):

Yeah, for further progress.

Jason Rigby (05:44):

[inaudible 00:05:44] it's war, which is horrific, but that is progress for-

Alexander McCaig (05:47):

But when you decrease more risk, you can focus on what the end goal is, without more externalities that can actually hinder the evolution towards that goal.

Jason Rigby (05:55):

Yeah. And he said, "Mankind is the dominant on earth, because he uses technologies and organizational systems to channel energy across space-time, with more intelligence and towards more profound purposes than any other animal."

Alexander McCaig (06:08):

Well, it's because the animals don't use the internet.

Jason Rigby (06:10):

Yeah. And he said, "Our higher aims require-

Alexander McCaig (06:12):

Unless you're a Qu-Anon.

Jason Rigby (06:15):

Yeah. We don't want to go there. Great documentary on HBO Cinemax going through that. "Our higher aims require the channeling of energy at larger spatial temporal scales, with more sophistication and with greater precision."

Alexander McCaig (06:26):

In case anyone doesn't know it, temporal just means time.

Jason Rigby (06:29):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (06:29):

So bigger space timescales. So the amount of time it takes to get somewhere and across what expanses they take.

Jason Rigby (06:34):

"Tools amplify the force of our work efforts-

Alexander McCaig (06:38):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (06:38):

" ...increasing the ratio of outcomes to energy expended." We need to stop here for a second, because this is important.

Alexander McCaig (06:42):

Well, let's hold up. Let's go back to our blacksmith, anvil thing. I got a hot piece of iron. I can smash it with a rock, which is some oblong shape and I hit out there. I was using my hand and I burned my hand up. Right? It's not really efficient. But what happens when I create a hammer?

Jason Rigby (06:58):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alexander McCaig (06:59):

Now, I have a tool that has a much more effective purpose, more so than just some big oblong rock that had weight.

Jason Rigby (07:05):

You have a tool creating a tool.

Alexander McCaig (07:06):

I have a tool creating a tool. And now what happens is you start to engineer more tools to create other tools.

Jason Rigby (07:10):

That's Tartle. We won't get into that.

Alexander McCaig (07:11):

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:07:14] it's tooling and retooling. What you do is you create a fractal of efficiencies. Right? And then one thing can specialize to another. And that allows for the advancement of these tools. And then through that, it allows you to get to whatever the end goal is, quicker. You're engineering yourself towards the faster evolution towards an end goal, whether you're using it with a decentralized currency, whether you're doing it with a decentralized marketplace, that allows people to empower themselves on their data, whether you're doing it, I don't know, with a blacksmith with the sword. The better the tool, the quicker you get to the end goal. Maybe I want to produce a thousand swords. So I'm going to start with a hammer. And then I'm going to start with a pneumatic hammer. And then I'm going to start with 30 pneumatic hammers. And then I have the thing that just presses the metal out in one hit.

Jason Rigby (07:55):

Yeah. He says, "Tools amplify the force of our work efforts." So whenever we look at Tartle as a tool, for this free marketplace of exchange of data for sellers and buyers. And we amplify the force of our work efforts. Let's say we have all the planet, seven billion people on Tartle. And there's this exchange that's going on.

Alexander McCaig (08:16):

Well, yeah. Amplify [crosstalk 00:08:18].

Jason Rigby (08:17):

Yeah, we've amplified efforts. How do you amplify the efforts?

Alexander McCaig (08:21):

I put all this work into filling out my social media data. Right? On Facebook or whatever your system might be. Okay, you put all the effort in there, but it hasn't helped you towards your end goal of actually creating value. Right? So I go on Tartle, this new tool, that's going to amplify all the previous work I did, so that I can capture value from it. Does that make sense?

Jason Rigby (08:40):

Yes. That makes sense. Yes.

Alexander McCaig (08:41):

That's how that works. 1, 2, 3, boom! It's a three-step, triple step of Vishnu.

Jason Rigby (08:47):

He talks about social economic organizations. I love how he says this. He says, "Like capitalism, socialism, and now sovereignism ... " So it's like, we've moved past socialism, we moved past capitalism, let's get into sovereignism, in the sense of ... And we look at it as data sovereignism, like ownership of data [crosstalk 00:09:07] and as an individual with the responsibility where that goes.

Alexander McCaig (09:09):

Key word. Boom! Right there. You can't have sovereignism, if you don't take responsibilities. That's it. You can't be sovereign on this planet, if we don't take responsibility for the health of the planet.

Jason Rigby (09:17):

Well, that's what he said. He said, "Let us engage in concentrated action to intensify collective output through the concentrated-

Alexander McCaig (09:23):

Yeah, go ahead.

Jason Rigby (09:24):

[crosstalk 00:09:24] ... to say, "Through the concentration of individual attention on ever-narrower phases of production."

Alexander McCaig (09:30):

This is what we talked about. I got to narrow down my attention on something. If I want to make a really good sword as a blacksmith, I have to narrow down my focus. I have to strike precisely. But that's my responsibility to hit it, where it needs to go. It's my responsibility to take my data and send it where I want to send it. It's my responsibility to take control of the actions I have that are affecting the earth and other human beings and fix that. That's for me to do, not for someone else to choose for me. We need to learn self- responsibility. The world does, because we've pissed it away. It's been gone for so long.

Jason Rigby (10:05):

Well, I think in our complacency and comfort, we've allowed these organizations, whether they're governments or whether they're corporations, to come in and say let's ... And he talks about this. These organizations, whether they're governments or whether ... They're tools. So a corporation is a tool, a government is a tool.

Alexander McCaig (10:28):

You're a tool.

Jason Rigby (10:29):

Yeah, I'm a tool. Yeah. There's a great band called Tool. [crosstalk 00:10:34] But they were nineties. Right? [crosstalk 00:10:36].

Alexander McCaig (10:35):

Yeah, good drumming.

Jason Rigby (10:36):

Oh yeah. And so whenever we look at these tools, they're tools that we, as humanity, get to wield if we're thinking of a sword. But we hold the sword and we wield it. What we have done is, we've allowed them to create a tool within a tool, and then they've created the sword. And then they said, "Hey, stay in your home. Don't come to battle. We'll do that for you."

Alexander McCaig (10:59):

Yeah. That's what [crosstalk 00:11:00].

Jason Rigby (11:00):

When it's our responsibility to go to the battle.

Alexander McCaig (11:03):

Yeah. Listen, you've created that issue. Don't pass it off, because the second you do that you're giving control to everybody else. Tartle elevates data out of its archaic realms. Tartle helps give data the next step in its evolution. It helps human beings give them the next step in their sovereignty about what they are creating and tracking that it. It gives us the natural progression of realizing the cause and effect of our actions and interactions.

Jason Rigby (11:29):

Yeah. And I'm not into hydroelectric dams, but he uses this as a good metaphor. I'm from Washington state-

Alexander McCaig (11:35):

Neither am I.

Jason Rigby (11:35):

So I've seen what they've done with salmon species and stuff like that. But he says, "The hydroelectric dam and the nation-state have this in common. They are both intelligently designed reservoirs and allocations of energy. The dam for hydraulic energy of water and the nation-state for the metabolic political, productive energy of populations.

Alexander McCaig (11:54):

Of course. Why do you think all the earliest civilizations built themselves on water? They understood where the energy was. There's a specific word for this. Herodotus wrote this in the [foreign language 00:12:06]. But it's a hydro ... Something where the largest groups focused on the power of water and then tuned that energy into allowing the growth of those civilizations or cities. Does that make sense?

Jason Rigby (12:18):

Well, yeah. Water is the most powerful thing that we could ever have.

Alexander McCaig (12:20):

But they realized that.

Jason Rigby (12:22):

You can't go without water for how many days? Three?

Alexander McCaig (12:24):

I don't know.

Jason Rigby (12:24):

I think it's three. You can go without food for months.

Alexander McCaig (12:27):

They have some data on some people that don't drink any water and live for a long time.

Jason Rigby (12:33):

They're, they're getting some type of water.

Alexander McCaig (12:35):

No, they're not. Yeah, that's what they-

Jason Rigby (12:38):

Because we're basically ... You've talked about this before. We're like little conscious fishbowls.

Alexander McCaig (12:41):

Yeah.

Jason Rigby (12:42):

Because we're made out of how many? What, 70, 80% water?

Alexander McCaig (12:44):

Yeah, we're about the same ratio as earth.

Jason Rigby (12:46):

We're going to get real philosophical here [crosstalk 00:12:50] so be patient with us if you guys aren't into this. But this is so cool. He says, "Both at least temporarily harness and channel the entropic onslaught of ecological and human nature." [crosstalk 00:13:02]

Alexander McCaig (13:01):

Energy allows us to deal with chaos. Right? So the more energy we have to create tools to help refine that chaos, would be to our benefit.

Jason Rigby (13:12):

And he says, "But in the end-

Alexander McCaig (13:13):

In the end.

Jason Rigby (13:14):

" ... both give way to the decentralizing tendencies, the very nature they seek to contain."

Alexander McCaig (13:20):

Yeah. Think about this. Imagine if the government was trying to stop the chaos that every individual creates. It's a very inefficient way of doing things. Or a corporation. It's better for an individual to deal with their own chaos, because then if everyone's taking responsibility for their own actions, then things would stabilize quite nicely, rather than one person trying to do it and then create a model for everybody. Why doesn't everyone just work with their own best model?

Jason Rigby (13:46):

Well, if we would go back to nature and look at this. And he says this, "Water always flows to the lowest places. And people always self-organize in ways that most favor their economic interests."

Alexander McCaig (13:57):

We're naturally efficient in things that we want. That's why we're magnetically attracted to specific things. There's no difference.

Jason Rigby (14:05):

So, as we look at this hydroelectric dam, as we look at these organizations, as we're looking at these tools in this episode, in this ... When we look at a de-centralized system ... And I love what he said here, "Water always flows to the lowest places." If there's a crack in that dam, it's going to find it.

Alexander McCaig (14:25):

It's going to find the efficiency.

Jason Rigby (14:26):

Yeah. It's going to find the efficiency and move in that direction. When we look at Tartle's marketplace, and we look at how efficient it is in this. And-

Alexander McCaig (14:33):

I can't even tell you how efficient it is.

Jason Rigby (14:34):

Yeah, but it's so funny, because when you explain it to people, they're like, "That's so simple. Why haven't ... ?" And it's like, "Why hasn't somebody else thought of this?"

Alexander McCaig (14:43):

Well, we asked the same question and that's why we did it. And if no one's doing it, well somebody's got to do it. Right?

Jason Rigby (14:48):

So whenever we look at economic interests, we look at water flowing to the lowest places, this statement here, and we look at Tartle, in and of itself, why is this data marketplace so essential to humanity?

Alexander McCaig (15:02):

Why? Because it allows for that efficiency, that gravity to pull us all together, kinetically pull buyer and sell together, party A, party B. And to collect our information, our energy in a place where we can easily share in that resource.

Jason Rigby (15:16):

But there has to be trust involved.

Alexander McCaig (15:18):

Of course.

Jason Rigby (15:18):

There's a betterment of humanity involved. There's this ability for both parties to be respectful of each other.

Alexander McCaig (15:25):

Hey, listen, if you are being disrespectful ... Say you're a buyer and you're being disrespectful. People can block you. You won't be able to buy any data [crosstalk 00:15:34] Hold on. And vice versa. If you're lying on your data, you're literally lying about stuff, and you're trying to cheat people out of like their money, a buyer can block you. You're disincentivized to lie on the platform for stuff that is self-input. Outside of API calls that happened from other third parties, you're disincentivized to lie for things you're putting in yourself. You got to strike balance. You have to foster a culture and a group of unified truth for everybody, for both parties. And that you fostering that respect between both. "I understand you're willing to pay me. Well, then I'm willing to be extremely truthful."

Jason Rigby (16:11):

Well, philosophically, that's why free market works. [crosstalk 00:16:14] Yeah, because it shows that weakness, that crack, because it's going to flow in that direction of that weakness. So if you have a seller or buyer that's being dishonest, you're going to see skewed data from that person. You know what I mean? So if Patagonia goes on and they want to purchase data from us-

Alexander McCaig (16:40):

I would love that.

Jason Rigby (16:41):

... let's say. Yeah, they're a great company. But they purchase data from us and then they have this outlier of this user that's being just stupid and saying, "I'm anti-climate stability," and all this stuff, then why would they want to purchase data from that person? The marketplace corrects itself.

Alexander McCaig (16:58):

Correct? Or people are filling out stuff they have no interest in. They're just filling out nonsense. Bye. They'll never buy from you again. It's your loss to lie. It's a free market. People will be like, "We're not going to buy from you," and they have that option.

Jason Rigby (17:09):

But when he talks about humanity, it is in their best interest, in an economic standpoint, it's in their favor to be honest. The Tartle's marketplace has created that. It's in your favor to be honest, because you're going to get paid for your data as an individual. And those quirkiness's about you as a person are what companies want to purchase.

Alexander McCaig (17:38):

They want to know the quirkiness. They want to know what makes you, you.

Jason Rigby (17:40):

Patagonia wants to know, "Do you buy just our brand? Do you buy North Face and our brand? Do you buy all these other brands? Do you go to REI?

Alexander McCaig (17:47):

Why?

Jason Rigby (17:48):

They want to know all that.

Alexander McCaig (17:49):

Tell me the why. That's what they're curious about.

Jason Rigby (17:51):

Yes.

Alexander McCaig (17:52):

If you don't speak the truth, you hinder your evolution, you hinder the person, you interacts with evolution, and everybody else they interact with too. Lying slows our growth as a species. Wake up! There's no good in it, because you're made to feel ... You didn't want to take the risk, or you're uncomfortable about it. Every time you lie, you damage yourself and others. That's a problem. It's not beneficial to anybody.

Jason Rigby (18:18):

Yeah. And Robert Breedlove, we said of course, we'd love to have him on the podcast, but I'd love to have these ... You've read a lot of books on it. These Austrian ... We've reached out to so few of them, but these economists. Love to have them on. I would like to know philosophically more about free market and their view on that, because I think it just aligns so well with Tartle.

Alexander McCaig (18:38):

Yeah. I'd have to sit here with a bucket of popcorn, I'd enjoy it so much.

Jason Rigby (18:41):

And our subscribers on YouTube has gone through the roof here recently, people. And we thank you for subscribing. If somebody wants to be a data champion, what is the easiest way for them to do that?

Alexander McCaig (18:52):

They go to tartle.co. We also bought just about every typo for how you would spell it. So no matter what you do, trying to type in tartle.co, it's going to send you to it. And then once you're on there, you click on the button that says "get started." And we will walk you through transparently, every part of the process. We are setting the bar for respecting you as a human being and respecting your data and your rights. Okay? So go to tartle.co and click on "get started."

Speaker 3 (19:28):

Thank you for listening to TARTLE Cast with your hosts, Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby. Where humanities steps into the future and source data defines the path. What's your data worth?