The Secret to Success With Jeff Gothelf, Agility Expert and Author of Forever Employable

Alexander McCaig (00:08):

Everybody, welcome back to TARTLE Cast, here with a special guest today, Jeff Gothelf. And I hope I pronounce your last name correct, Jeff. I'm not sure if it's Got-helf or Gothelf but both of them sound pretty good. Could you help me out with that?

Jeff Gothelf (00:24):

Yeah, It's Gothelf.

Alexander McCaig (00:25):

Oh, it's Gothelf, It was separate. All right, fantastic. So Jeff, you have been an expert essentially in business agility for quite some time. And many people look to you for a great body of practical advice on how they should adapt within their own businesses, Fortune 500 and the like, and you've recently come out with a book around 365 days ago, which was Forever Employable. First of all, the timing's fantastic considering the fact that we've had COVID and many, many people all across the world lost their opportunities for income. And so when they're looking to adapt to different catalysts in life, you come up with this book to say, "Hey, I have a format that I know works because from," what I understand, and you can tell me wrong, "my own life." You, Jeff, speaking about you, you've used this model and this model has actually decreased many of the risks in the adaptations you take, but has increased the amount of brand value you have for yourself as that sort of leading thought-thinker around business and life, adaptation to business environments, and any other stressors that we happen to find, am I wrong with that?

Jeff Gothelf (01:44):

No, no, it's absolutely right. In fact, the book is semi-autobiographical, it's my story. I say semi, because it starts when I turned 35 rather than everything leading up to being 35. But it is my story and it's what I've learned along the way, building my career. And frankly, it's born of as kind of an ongoing continuous inbound stream of requests to share that story in bits and pieces. So people will email or direct message and say, "Hey Jeff, how did you get that speaking gig? Or how did you get that book deal? Or how'd you get published on that website? Or how'd you end up on that podcast?" And at some point, those requests add up and there's a clear signal from the market that says, people want to know this stuff. They want to understand how to do this better. And so I decided to write the book and share my story. Now, obviously it's augmented with other people's stories as well, but yeah, I mean, this is my experience doing this. And so that should be both encouraging, but also, take it with a grain of salt. There's a lot to take away, a lot to learn, but also to be adapted in your unique context.

Alexander McCaig (02:49):

Well, that's funny you say that individuals from the market came to you asking questions, and those questions is almost like the AB tests and the response from your follower, your tribe, whether it be a hundred, a thousand, 10,000 or a million, and they're like, "Hey, this is what we're looking for." So you're like, "It's interesting, I wonder if I can articulate a narrative," and like you would say, "plant my flag and go all in on these questions to actually create something, a resource of great value for these people. So not only can they pay me back for this resource and the work I put into it, but it can really help them expand upon doing that same thing in their own lives." Is that correct?

Jeff Gothelf (03:26):

Yeah, I mean that's... And that's the goal, right? The goal is to take the experience that I have and break it down in the most practical, tactical way that I know how and provide them with a guide. Now, look, there are five steps in the book, there's a process that you can follow, but again, people will make it their own, but the answer to how'd you get that speaking gig? How'd you get that book deal? How did you build that network or that audience or that career? It's in the book. It's just, the answer frankly is fairly simple. It's the rigor and the practice and the effort that goes into the process that breeds the success.

Alexander McCaig (04:06):

Yeah, but, Jeff, a lot of people... And I know you tried to talk about the non-starting aspect of it because it can seem... You say you have to take action. When people look at you and what you're doing and the amount of success you've had, which is a greater body of success around your model of work, they're like, "I don't even know where to start, I don't even know what to look to." And many people don't know even how to understand what they do like. How do you sort of design that filter for them or have that conversation or allow them to refocus the mindset so they can start to take these actionable steps?

Jeff Gothelf (04:43):

This was a real shock for me, honestly. When I wrote the book and the book came out about a year ago, I started doing some events around the book and I said, "Great, step on, plant your flag, pick your passion, let's go." It's like you're starting to run down the road and you think there's people coming with you and then you look over your shoulder and there's no one there and you're like, "Where are you guys? Let's go. Take the thing you love, and let's get started." And literally 90% of them were like, "I don't know what I love. I don't have a passion." Really and that was such a, of all the assumptions that I made about the book and about the target audience and the things that people might do with the book, that's the one thing I did not see. I didn't anticipate that a lot of folks basically go to work, come home, watch TV, eat dinner, go to sleep, go to work, come home. And this idea that they have a flag to plant or an expertise or an experience to share that could be valuable to others is completely foreign to them. And I think that one of them... And it's one of the biggest obstacles that the folks that I've talked to over the last year have to overcome if they're going to actually follow this approach and try to build a reputation for themselves.

Alexander McCaig (06:09):

Correct, it's funny that you've run into this. And the reason I ask this is because I have seen this through my own work that I've done and also with interacting with individuals who even consider the business that we're in, of sharing data, they're like, "Well, I don't really have anything to share because I'm not important. Or I don't know what to share because I don't know what's valuable." I think people forget the amount of value that they have just in being a human being, that there's a great body of uniqueness, and your book helps speak to the uniqueness of that individual. And you ask them to go all in on you being unique, go all in on those opinions and double check your assumptions, bring in the facts and then continue with the narrative of you, is that right?

Jeff Gothelf (06:55):

Yeah, and look, the folks that I speak to, they say things like, "Everything's already been said, there's nothing new under the sun." Right? You take the thing that you do, even if you do find your passion, the thing that you care about, you pop it into Google, you get a million hits, right? A million responses, a million pages. They don't know where to begin. What's new? What can I share that's new? And you're spot on, right? It's the human side of it, right? It's your story. Okay, everything under the sun has been said, except your story, right? Your unique path, the experiences, the challenges, the wins, the things that make you unique, that hasn't been shared yet. And that's the thing that people latch onto. In fact, I was looking at a podcast earlier today and it was with YouTuber, Ali Abdaal.

Jeff Gothelf (07:46):

Ali Abdaal's got 2 million followers, he was a med student at Cambridge and he's become this massive YouTube sensation. He's very good, makes these amazing videos. And now he's got a course, a course where he teaches people how to become a YouTube success. And he said, he focused 90% of the course on the technical side of it, how to make really great YouTube videos and only 10% on what he initially thought was the fluffy human side of it, right, the anxiety around pushing record, the anxiety around being on camera, the anxiety around publishing your first video, your second video. And he said, what was really fascinating is as he began to run the course and he was surveying student feedback, overwhelmingly, they said they wanted much more of that human side of the process. The technical stuff, they can get pretty quickly. It's the how do I get over my imposter syndrome, right? How do I get over critiques, unfriendly critiques? That's the stuff that people really hang on to, and that's the human side of this conversation.

Alexander McCaig (08:50):

And I think when you talk about that and you use the Solomon quote, there's nothing new under the sun, yeah, there may not be something new, but the way the narrative is told is different for each person. We all have have to learn, right? That's a general theme for us and we're all trying to achieve or evolve to something. Okay, that's shared. But the way in which that is done carries that uniqueness. But the narrative, the emotion, the impact, it may not seem like other people may latch onto it, but something about that fluff is actually the real driver for people in an emotional sense that captures them. Yes, we can all create that great YouTube page. Yes, we can write books, run businesses, do this, do that, but the real personal narrative of how we got there, that real aspect of the storytelling, that emotional capture is the driver. And you never know who you're going to capture, you never know which part of that audience is actually going to resonate with that very emotional aspect that you are feeling because there are other people that can commiserate or link up with that.

Jeff Gothelf (09:57):

There are audiences that I've spoken to in the last year who don't have any experience, work experience. They're fresh out of school, trade school, vocational school, developer bootcamp, whatever it is. And their first question is, what am I going to talk about? What is... What could I possibly have to share? And I said, "Well, show your experience in dev bootcamp, share your experience looking for your first gig as a software engineer, share your experience first day on the job, first 90 days on the job. First..." In other words, you've got a tremendous story to tell and there are so many people who are in that same boat who want validation that they're doing the right thing, that they're seeing the same struggles, that their challenges are your challenges and it's... The other thing, to kind of repeat it a third time, there's nothing new under the sun, but there's always room for one-on-one level content, entry-level content because there's always new people coming into whatever domain, discipline, industry that you're in. There's always new people coming in and they're always looking for new one-on-one level content.

Alexander McCaig (11:08):

Yeah and I think that's what's so fabulous about this, and so when an individual is creating that one-on-one content, what data should they look for that helps them reinforce that they're on the right narrative path, that they've gone in on the right thing? What should they look for in terms of numbers or reinforcement that tells them this is the path I should continue to take? Or even when two of them may be, this one is making the same money as this, but I'm really passionate about this one, not so passionate about this, but I can see that there's going to be a higher revenue, what do you do when you're at that kind of split path?

Jeff Gothelf (11:47):

So a couple of thoughts here, so this is where I apply a lot of my experience in product development to this Forever Employable, this recognized expertise platform ideas, in the book Forever Employable. The thing that you're ultimately looking for is meaningful change in the behavior of the people who consume your content or consume the data, or whatever it is that you're creating, right? You're looking for meaningful change in their behavior. Revenue's one measure of that behavior, right? People are paying you for or subscribing or continuing to renew their subscriptions, but there's lots of other things to look for. First of all, they're consuming it. Second of all, they're sharing or they're liking or they're commenting or they're telling their friends, they're referring people over to you. Those are all the things that really give you a sense of how passionate the audience is about what you're sharing, how you're sharing and how much it's resonating.

Jeff Gothelf (12:41):

And so that those are really key leading indicators to the success of these ideas. If you're lucky enough to find yourself in a position where you've got two equally successful ideas, and maybe one's a little bit more successful than the other, and you've got to decide ultimately where to focus your effort, that becomes an interesting challenge because you have to live with that decision for a while, right? You have to stay with that idea and really exist in that world for an extended period of time, that could be months, it could be years potentially, especially if you're generating a living income off of this. And so you really have to ask yourself, is this somewhere I want to spend my time, if I'm not passionate about that, even if the potential is there, right, the apathy that you have for the subject matter eventually shows through. I don't care how good of an actor you are, right? And so you might be able to fake it for a little bit, right? Oh, I'm super excited about, I don't know, cactus, cacti.

Alexander McCaig (13:47):

I do like cacti, did you know that cacti succulents are cacti, but not all cacti are succulents. I just figured I would share that with you, you brought that up.

Jeff Gothelf (13:55):

I didn't know that, right. But really, if there's a big audience for that, but you really, I don't know, are like, "Eh, I like cacti, but I'm really more of a tree guy." Right?

Alexander McCaig (14:07):

Yeah, well, that's a fun... It's time, the great equalizer, right? People will see through that. For instance in my personal case, when we started TARTLE, it took four years of literally putting that flag down. This is our opinion, eradicate the assumptions, AB test the hell out of it, and let's see if we can do something with something that we are truly passionate about. We want to help human beings. We want them to be able to share data and fix that power race symmetry that we've currently felt. And we've told that story thousands of times, and it takes a long time. It takes a great body of effort and you have to have that passion because there will be those ups and downs. So how is it, Jeff, that you can help people move through the weathering of the ebb and flow of time and these passions that come and go?

Jeff Gothelf (15:05):

Look, so here's an example, okay? The first book that I wrote is called Lean UX, Lean User Experience. And it came from the work that I was doing with my product design development teams back in 2008 in New York City, which means that today in 2021... And by the way, it's the most successful book I've written, the first one, right? You always kind of come out with your big hit first and then your sophomore album never does as well as your debut. Nevertheless, I have been talking about Lean UX for 13 years, at least, at least 13 years. There have been moments, especially in the first three, four, five years, and once the book initially came out where it was just up into the right, everything was just great, bigger audiences, bigger, more sales, bigger conferences, bigger gigs. And then it starts to become cyclical.

Jeff Gothelf (16:03):

And to... I definitely got to a point where I began to doubt whether this thing had legs kind of after five, six years of doing it and speaking to a few folks, they told me I was ridiculous. They said there's so many more folks who can benefit from this, so many more folks who haven't read this yet. You just have to persevere through those down cycles and keep pushing it out there. And part of the reason for that is that Lean UX in this particular case is solving an evergreen problem, right? It's solving a collaboration issue between different disciplines inside digital product development teams, right? That's what it's solving. And so that's an evergreen problem. And if you can... The thing that you're sharing, the thing that you're talking about fundamentally solves an evergreen problem, then it will have legs for a long time. What we call it, how you share it, how you distribute it, that's going to vary over the years, the way that you deliver that idea and that value, well, that's iteration, that's innovation, that's just sort of reinvention for an ever-changing world and marketplace. But if the core problem is evergreen, forgive me, but you're going to be forever employable, right, in essence.

Alexander McCaig (17:20):

Yeah, and so does that mean an individual or a business should constantly be searching for that evergreen problem, whether it's the product they create, the service they create or things that are happening within their own lives, family matters, relationship matters? I know this is a little bit away from business, but I truly think this is applicable across all those fields. Do you look for what that evergreen is? Is that an introspective thing that is happening as much as it is something that happens on the outside?

Jeff Gothelf (17:48):

So you... I think you look for that evergreen problem, the thing that's going to be there, and then I think you spend your effort iterating on how you solve and deliver solutions for that problem. The trick is finding that core problem. This is another exercise I do with a lot of folks with us, I'll say, "Okay, what's the core problem you help people solve?" And they say, "I'm a project manager." Okay, what's the core problem you help people solve? "I manage projects." Okay, what's the core problem you help people solve, right? And it's kind of, it's like five why's, right? It's like you're going to ask the five why's until they get to the point where they're like, "I help diverse individuals reach a common goal." Okay, right? That's project management, right? If you boil it down, that's an evergreen problem, right?

Jeff Gothelf (18:38):

That's a problem that's plagued mankind for the existence of written history, certainly human history, right? And so now, okay, today you can deliver that as a project manager, right? Maybe tomorrow you deliver that as a life coach, right? But the idea is that identifying that core problem and then continuously reinventing yourself to meet the needs or the realities of today, which are changing super fast.

Alexander McCaig (19:09):

So when you reinvent yourself, are you reinventing yourself for the sake of what the demands are at the market or are you reinventing yourself for the sake of what you feel you are still truly passionate about? And that could be the business itself and its culture and what it demands as passion, even though people are saying, "Oh, you should be focusing on metal straws rather than plastic ones, or do this instead of that, or you should be in this relationship instead of this one," how much of the outside do you take and allow that to influence your passions and where you should focus that evergreen nature?

Jeff Gothelf (19:46):

I think it's both. I think you have to do both, right? The reality is that if your delivering mode for the evergreen problem that you are solving is decreasingly relevant, then you're going to run out of work at some point. And so there's a part of it that you're doing for the business and for the market. I think there's a part of it that you're doing for yourself as well, if you're truly going to live in this flag that you've planted for years, then you have to keep it interesting. You have to keep it fresh, you have to keep it different. And if you can evolve the way that you do deliver that value, whatever that is, that keeps it interesting for you as well, it keeps you motivated, it keeps you excited, and that comes across in those delivery channels as well.

Alexander McCaig (20:39):

Jeff, that's fabulous. I've read a lot of books on mythology and when you speak about this narrative, it's reminds me a lot of Joseph Campbell and these archetypes of the hero. And I feel as we're building that brand, setting that steak, we're going through all those different stages of the architect of the development of what we are, our brand or our business to actually become that great hero at the end. And we deal with different rivals, right, different challenges, personal, interpersonal, whatever it might be, but the way myth carries, it's potent regardless of the length of time. And I think it's that function of passion and understanding within the myth itself, the narrative of the human being, which gets carried over into the culture of businesses that makes things truly stick. It's what makes Hollywood work.

Alexander McCaig (21:34):

And when I read Forever Employable, it's almost like when I go back to reflect on my life in the end of my years, was I forever employable in this narrative? How strong was that narrative and the choice I made through my passions to create good or create wealth or whatever that might be in this world? And I think that's what's really interesting is the reflection of the events as you're going through them, using your model and saying what a wonderful story I've painted that can be shared for a very long time. And I think that's that sort of human-centric approach that businesses are taking, people are taking that has a lot more legs to it.

Jeff Gothelf (22:13):

The interesting part is very, very few people want to tell that story and for those of us who do, that's a really good thing, right? It's just, again, it can feel overwhelming like there's nothing new under the sun, everything's been said, I can't, there's nothing I could possibly contribute that's new and define a niche for myself where I can create a comfortable living and a comfortable life for myself. But the reality is that there are very few people who are willing to put in that kind of effort and that dedication in the grand scheme of things. That's not to say that there aren't tons of qualified people, people who have all the tools and all the capabilities to do so, but without that execution and without that initiative to actually get it done, it never happens.

Jeff Gothelf (23:02):

I mean, a perfect example, so the target reader persona for Forever Employable was a friend of mine, somebody who I've known for 30 years, somebody who I'm very close friends with, and he has all the tools, he's, smart, charming, speaks well, he's social, very friendly, super connector kind of person who knows everybody and everybody knows him, keeps in touch, can kind of set his mind to something and learn it and be good at it and be successful. But when it comes to putting all those pieces together in a way that could fundamentally redefine how he lives, that initiative isn't there.

Jeff Gothelf (23:46):

The push isn't there because it's scary, because it's risky, because it's different. So instead he trades that for the fear of, "Oh, crap, my company just got acquired, I got to update my resume. Oh, crap. We're doing a merger, shit, will I get fired kind of stuff?" Right? And so my hope is that we actually get and this whole movement around the creator economy and the passion economy and all of those things, right? My hope is that as that becomes more and more mainstream, we see more folks actually take their, all those parts that they have and put them to use to create an identity for themselves, a presence for themselves and generate these opportunity magnets that keep them employable forever.

Alexander McCaig (24:34):

I see, I just love the term opportunity magnets. First of all, I nerd out with magnets anyway, but a lot of people that are introverted don't find themselves as magnets. Does this work for an introvert as much as it does for an extrovert?

Jeff Gothelf (24:46):

It's tougher, for sure it's tougher, but look, I mean, let's be... And I learned this only recently, so if we're talking about things that we've learned recently, right? I always thought that introverts hated people and extroverts loved people. It's actually not true, right? Introverts are just drained by social interaction and need to go and recharge. Whereas extroverts are energized by, they'd get energy from social interactions. It doesn't mean that introverts hate social interaction, right? So, I just want... And I learned that relatively recently, but that said, look, this kind of approach to building a platform and a network and audience for yourself, it does require a level of extrovertedness or at least the comfort with sharing and not everybody has that.

Jeff Gothelf (25:35):

And so, yeah, so folks who are drained by being extroverted, this is something that you have to do in small doses or you find the channels that work well for you, right? So if you don't want to host podcasts because it's exhausting for you, then don't do that, right? You can make your own YouTube videos, you can write, make infographics. There's a thousand ways for you to express yourself that don't require you to directly interface with an audience face-to-face, one-on-one, but you have to find that, you have to experiment your way to find that.

Alexander McCaig (26:11):

So you experiment with the microdosing and you essentially microdosed yourself out of fear to create action towards something that you are, what seemed uncomfortable, but something that really works with your personality. And so if you align, after reading your book, if I get this right, if you align the passion with the personality, with the AB testing and with an opinion that has a beautiful narrative, you're going to find success in whatever you do. And you will maintain that employment, self-employment or employment with other businesses regardless.

Jeff Gothelf (26:47):

Absolutely, it takes focus, it takes dedication and it takes... It's exactly right. It's that experimentation with different channels, different types of content that will eventually help you figure out not only where your audience is and how they want to hear from you or what you're comfortable sharing with them on a consistent basis, and that's what generates these opportunities. But again, it's effort, stuff's not going to work out. It's going to take time to build an audience. Look, it's a lot easier. I mean, it took me, I don't know, 10 years really to going to build it on a platform that I have today. I see folks doing in two years, these days, because there's so much to learn. And there's so many more resources today that when you can say, "Oh, I can learn from that person to see what they did and learn what they did," and really put together a series of experiments that helps you move forward much more quickly.

Alexander McCaig (27:45):

And now, is there anything within your own personal brand and your own life that reinforced you to say in your own mind, because it's important, the thoughts you have in your own mind, "I am still doing the right thing. The numbers may not show it yet. The money's not here yet," how has that you reinforced to yourself, "Yes, I'm still taking the right actionable steps"? What was that sort of barometer for you?

Jeff Gothelf (28:15):

Yeah, it still exists. Look, so Forever Employable is a really good example of that because it's been a year now since the book's been out and it's done well, better than most books do, but it has not met my expectations when it comes to sales or the kind of audience that I was hoping for. Part of it is the primary audience that I'd speak to is a product and tech audience, so digital organization, leadership, that type of thing. This is a much more broad book. So the folks in product and tech and design and that world, organizational agility, they're all in on this and they bought it, right? So that's great but now finding that next audience is a bit of a challenge and I'm struggling with that a little bit. And there are, there certainly are days where I'm like, "You know what? I can just stop talking about this and just let it go. It was a good experiment, ran it for a year."

Jeff Gothelf (29:07):

And then I see traffic on a particular blog post spike, or I get a message from somebody, "Hey, I just read your book." Or I go back and I read the Amazon book reviews, frankly, the overwhelming number of which are positive reviews, right? Five star reviews. And it really helps, it really helps. People are like, "I read this and it changed my life." And that really helps me keep going. And so that to me is the barometer. Now look, it's some... It's interesting, I used to be a touring musician, right? And-

Alexander McCaig (29:40):

No way. Wait a minute, what musician, were you playing? What was it? You singer? What was it?

Jeff Gothelf (29:45):

I play keyboards.

Alexander McCaig (29:46):

No way, you do look like a keyboard guy.

Jeff Gothelf (29:49):

Keyboard guys are bald, yeah, it's true. No, but look, when you're playing original music and you're trying to be... You're trying to make it, right, trying to make it, this was back in the '90s, right? There's that mentality of, just one more gig, one more gig, you never know who's going to be there. Let's do one more gig, one more because you could be playing to five people, but one of those five could be the person who can really help you kind of boost and go to the next level. There does come a point where the ROI's not worth it, I don't know how to quantify it, right, at some point in the late '90s after several years of trying to make it, I decided I was done.

Jeff Gothelf (30:34):

Right? What was the trigger point? I don't know. I was broke. I wanted to go out on dates with girls. I didn't have any money at that point, it had been a while since I had any money and the internet was happening and that was cool, right? And so I think at some point the ROI, the investment isn't worth it. But I mean, I'm not talking about weeks, I'm talking about years of investment. That's really kind of where the decision point has to be I think.

Alexander McCaig (31:00):

And that's really interesting because a lot of people, they ignore that. They ignore a lot of that reality and they're like, this really isn't working, but they'll continue. I've seen companies many times just continue to dump money into something that is really, truly not helping them. But they're just like, "But I've invested so much time," and it's difficult for people to pivot out of that. And so how do you make that pivot then? Was the change easy?

Jeff Gothelf (31:32):

No, no, because the sunk cost fallacy feels very, very real and [crosstalk 00:31:39]. I was 26 when I got off the road, right, I mean, all my friends had jobs or making money and cars, all this and you're like, "But I put six, seven years of my life into this, was that for nothing?" No, it wasn't for nothing, right, I learned a ton, I had a great time and made the best friends of my life. I have stories for days and it taught me a bunch of skills that I can now apply in a new context, right? And so I think that there is... But that's some cost fallacy, I've done it for six years, let's do for another one, another two, another six. How would we give up now? At some point, the ROI isn't worth it. And I think it's a kind of a consistent... The market will tell you, right? You're going to it for a little while, and you should, I think initially, but if the feedback, the evidence from the people you're trying to serve is consistent, like, "Nah, it's not for me, not interested, not going to pay for it, not coming to the gig, not coming to your show," whatever it is eventually, eventually it's time to let it go and try something new.

Alexander McCaig (33:04):

I think that is practically very objective for people to go about that approach. And I really hope that they do listen. And I got to tell you, we have listeners across 222 countries for this podcast, so I hope we can boost some of those Amazon reviews on your book. You're talking about a broader audience-

Jeff Gothelf (33:24):

That'd be great.

Alexander McCaig (33:25):

-we got one of the proudest ones around. And to speak to that, Jeff, what is the final message you would want to leave to that broader audience?

Jeff Gothelf (33:35):

I think your future is ultimately in your hands. I think the narrative that we've been sold for the last, I don't know how many decades that if you work hard and you kind of, you do well for the company, the company will do well for you. I think that kind of loyalty is dead, I don't think it exists anymore. The fact that my friend's dad did 40 years at DuPont and then got a pension and retired with honors, whatever that is, those days are gone, right? And I think that the most important thing that you can do for yourself, for your organization, whether you're an individual, contributor or a leader, is to own, is to take back control of your professional life and to do that, you've got to create a presence for yourself. And that's the key here. If you don't do that, somebody else will, somebody else will write your narrative for you, and I think that that's a shame.

Alexander McCaig (34:30):

Yeah, that's amazing take control of the narrative, take control of your data, whatever it might be. It's holding upon you and make sure you do it because we're all interested to hear everybody's story. So, Jeff, thank you very much for coming onto today, I sincerely appreciate it.

Jeff Gothelf (34:46):

My pleasure, Alexander, thanks so much for having me. This was great.

Alexander McCaig (34:48):

No problem, we'll talk soon.

Jeff Gothelf (34:49):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (34:49):

Thank you for listening to TARTLE Cast with your hosts, Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanities steps into the future and source data defines the path. What's your data worth?