How TARTLE is a Symbol of Hope and Change

Alexander McCaig (00:07):

Back to Mr. Breedlove. We got some cool stuff to talk about. And this is probably going to be a multi-part TARTLE, TCAST. But it's bound to happen, so.

Jason Rigby (00:18):

Yeah. We love his articles. On agreement on a lot of things that he shares and talks about. He's very philosophical, especially when it comes to the free market. And that's what we want to talk about today. He has an article he came out with called, Righting the Ship, Righting the Ship. And he starts off this way. "The way of decentralization is the free market." That's how he starts.

Alexander McCaig (00:40):

So, "The way of decentralization is the free market." Is that what you're saying?

Jason Rigby (00:44):

Yes. And then he says, "A form of free experimentation, where problem solvers make wagers to try their hands at resolving entropy for society."

Alexander McCaig (00:54):

Okay. So if we, in the United States, put certain laws, rules and regulations in place that punish individuals from taking risks, from being creative, from trying to make new solutions or engineers new solutions, this is going to hurt the free market aspect, this generation of new ideas and wealth that occurs through this. Is that making sense?

Jason Rigby (01:27):

Yes. A hundred percent.

Alexander McCaig (01:28):

So when Breedlove talks about this, we have to remove any sort of resistance for the creation essentially of new assets, new solutions, which wealth can then generate from. You feeling that?

Jason Rigby (01:40):

Mm-hmm.

Alexander McCaig (01:40):

Okay. All right. Great. What else is he talking about?

Jason Rigby (01:42):

So he says, "Entrepreneurial entropy resolution comes in the forms of want, satisfaction and innovation."

Alexander McCaig (01:49):

Right. So every entrepreneur has an idea of where they want to go. And there's a little bit of chaos around these things. This entropy is sort of a chaotic motion. So within this, how do they refine that chaos into something very targeted? They have an idea of what they want to become in their lives. They have an idea of what they want to engineer. But we cannot limit them in their ability to engineer new things, to take this entropy and put it into something useful for all of us in society to actually find value from.

Jason Rigby (02:16):

Yeah. And he says, "True entrepreneurs are those who play with fire and learn from their mistakes, growing the civilizational treasury of knowledge in the process."

Alexander McCaig (02:25):

Yeah, because entrepreneurs, they're tinkerers. And through tinkering, we've found that the probability of great things actually come when people take the time to work. You'll burn your hand, learn a lesson, try again. And these entrepreneurs, if they don't get burnt by their government, they'll do this all day long until they find great solutions for us.

Jason Rigby (02:43):

Did you read this?

Alexander McCaig (02:44):

No.

Jason Rigby (02:45):

Listen to this, next line.

Alexander McCaig (02:47):

Did I read it? No.

Jason Rigby (02:48):

"Entrepreneurs are tinkerers."

Alexander McCaig (02:50):

Get the hell out of here!

Jason Rigby (02:51):

Yes. "...pursuing positive payoff convexities while hoping not get burned, yet contributing to the alignment of us all when they do occasionally go up in flames."

Alexander McCaig (03:05):

That's what I was just talking about. So here's what happens. Say an entrepreneur makes a mistake. That allows society and other entrepreneurs to recognize where things didn't work well. So essentially, that knowledge base of all of us as individuals who are in this market, in this free market, one that's reduced friction, one that affords us the opportunity to create and learn to do this testing, there's great gains that happen from it. And through the losses we learn even more. It always pushes us forward in our own evolution.

Jason Rigby (03:33):

Yeah. And he explains tinkering and I really like this. He says, "Tinkering is antifragile action that transmutes randomness into revelations."

Alexander McCaig (03:41):

Well, that's correct. So when I'm tinkering, what do I do? I'm taking random effects that are happening everywhere. I'm trying random things to find something to work. It's like, how many times can I walk out into the forest and find the perfect flower? I have to tinker. I have to slowly change my path. I have to change the time of day, in which I go out there. When is the sun going to hit? Is it going to be in bloom? It's that tinkering. It's that acting over, and over, and over, and over through the randomness of everything occurring in this forest, in this total ecosystem. And I funneled through the entropy and found that just small changes have led me towards a solution.

Jason Rigby (04:16):

Well, I mean, that's why bees are so adaptive. They do the same exact thing to find the pollen so quickly. And they adapt to these environmental changes extremely quickly.

Alexander McCaig (04:23):

Well, they have to. Nobody, nobody, no other outside force is actually limiting their ability to do that, unless we're spraying pesticides out there killing the bees. That creates a friction in their ability to create and actually learn from themselves. And all they're going to know is that some sort of artificial input, a government, or some other thing is actually inhibiting them from being creative.

Jason Rigby (04:43):

The pesticides destroy the free market.

Alexander McCaig (04:46):

That's precisely correct.

Jason Rigby (04:47):

And so government regulation-

Alexander McCaig (04:48):

Is pesticide.

Jason Rigby (04:49):

Is pesticide.

Alexander McCaig (04:49):

There we go.

Jason Rigby (04:50):

That makes sense. So he's quoting from the book, which we all love, Antifragile. And he says this, and I love this quote, "Wind extinguishes a candle and energizes fire. Likewise, with randomness, uncertainty and chaos, you want to use them, not hide from them. You want to be the fire and wish for the wind."

Alexander McCaig (05:10):

Yeah. So if there's just a little bit of flame, if it's not afforded proper fuel, it's going to get blown out by other catalysts. So if I take all the entropy, the chaos, essentially the twigs on the forest floor, and I'm bringing all that brush together, that brush can move into a mighty blaze. And then any other catalyst from the outside will come in and just fuel this thing. But I've afforded myself to take all the assets of the chaos, coalesce them together and take that small, little flame and turn it into a blaze.

Jason Rigby (05:41):

Yeah. He says, "Deeply rooted in the chaos of nature," this is Breedlove, "deeply rooted in the chaos of nature, through the principles of mathematics, thermodynamics and Darwinian self-preservation." And I would argue, he's arguing for Bitcoin. He's a Bitcoin maximist. I would argue that anywhere we see free market is free market. So if Bitcoin is what he's saying, I'm going to say the TARTLE marketplace. He says, "Bitcoin," or the TARTLE marketplace, "is the greatest expression of order ever achieved by humanity."

Alexander McCaig (06:10):

It's not the greatest. It's one. It's a strong expression. But it still lacks perfection in the fact that if he's talking about a blaze, it still requires, in terms of brush, a lot of front-loaded capital to be a part of that decentralization.

Jason Rigby (06:28):

Yeah. What he is getting into is Bitcoin is hope in the sense of why saving and honest money is the only way to restore hope for a fallen world. So when you're looking at money, exchange of energy, we talked about a lot of his stuff before, he's looking at Bitcoin as being kind of the only right now, I mean, there's going to be a lot of cryptocurrencies that come out, but being the only one that's honest money.

Alexander McCaig (06:50):

How is he saying that it's honest? Honest in the fact that it removes very centralized parties from coming in and manipulating it? Is that his sense of honesty?

Jason Rigby (07:01):

Yeah. He says, "My hope is that Bitcoin will help entrepreneurs regain their economic and antifragility by giving them the ability to store savings in a plunder-proof money and discouraging undo debt accumulation."

Alexander McCaig (07:12):

Ah! Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. So his idea is that through the use of decentralized cryptocurrency networks, specifically Bitcoin, one of the largest aspects of failure in entrepreneurialism allowing businesses to thrive is a lack of cash flow. So he's saying if you change the store of value outside of debt and move it into something that's appreciating very quickly, your collective social value of a decentralized network, that actually stabilizes your business going forward. You have the ability to operate at a very, very low cost by integrating this not only into your store of value, but also as the fabric of which your business is operating in this new web paradigm.

Jason Rigby (07:50):

Where we would look at it in the sense of yeah, money. But the TARTLE marketplace, we'd look at it in a sense of trade. For instance, if a not-for-profit think tank has a scientist that works for it and they want to sell their white papers or sell their research, they could go to the TARTLE marketplace, put that on the marketplace. And then if a large corporation or an organization would want to purchase that on this free market, they have the ability to do that. And then that money goes to that organization to support that organization.

Alexander McCaig (08:20):

Correct. So instead of begging for grants, which everyone's fighting for, appropriate your work that you've put out there and get paid for doing that work as you should. And then put that towards the things you actually need.

Jason Rigby (08:30):

And I agree with this. And I know you will, too. He says, "Maximally sovereign, problem-solving entrepreneurs fortified by sound savings are our best fighting force against eternal entropy."

Alexander McCaig (08:42):

Yeah. So, oh gosh, man, how do you simplify this? The idea is that the foundations which entrepreneurs need to create something of value amongst all the chaos and change that is going on here is to have sufficient fundamentals. First of all, that's the currency which they receive to support their business. And then from that, use the technology which supports that currency to support how their business operates. Now, from that it creates a robust system, because it's inherently decentralized, which is what he's getting at. And through that decentralization, you have sovereignty over the action, creation and what you do in terms of your creativity within that business.

Alexander McCaig (09:22):

Now, for instance, if I want to get into banking today, Jason, I'm limited by huge amounts of money I have to pay upfront just to get the operation going, to get the licensing from the state and federally. Now, if I wanted to create a new sort of financial service, a DeFi thing, I can do that right now, under my own creativity. So all the chaos, and uncertainty, and debt that happens around these other systems that are so front-loaded, I can shift that over towards something like this, where now my work has a very direct payoff.

Jason Rigby (09:53):

Yeah. And I love this part. He talks about entrepreneurs. He said, "Let us honor them as true heroes and disavow the heinous bureaucrats undercutting their achievements through unnecessary legislation and inflation. Let Liberty, not legislatures, lead us."

Alexander McCaig (10:08):

Right. You got to let freedom and creativity lead, not law to lead. Law is a very reactive approach to human choice.

Jason Rigby (10:16):

Yeah. And he says, "A leaderless civilization is for the first time possible with Bitcoin." And I would say, Bitcoin is one of those. But TARTLE marketplace, you could have a leaderless civilization with [inaudible 00:10:26].

Alexander McCaig (10:26):

Well, easily you could do all your voting and everything could happen directly through TARTLE, through everyone's work interaction in sharing of that data.

Jason Rigby (10:33):

Well, what he's really, really big on, hugely big on, which he would love TARTLE for this instance, and I encourage him to let's have a conversation, is private property rights.

Alexander McCaig (10:43):

Oh, my gosh. We are one of the biggest champions.

Jason Rigby (10:45):

This perfects private property rights. TARTLE's marketplace, and I know he would say Bitcoin does too, but TARTLE marketplace, and you could see a lot of similarities back and forth, the TARTLE marketplace perfects private property rights.

Alexander McCaig (10:57):

Yeah. I wouldn't say that Bitcoin does that, because the Bitcoin value can still be manipulated. So someone's right is still associated with a US dollar value. Where with TARTLE, your work is secured with this tool to say that this is my property. So the thing you've actually worked for, rather than people just buying into it to say, "I'm securing all these property rights," which can be manipulated in its value. You have a hundred percent right, just through your own work, and choice of access to this tool, which is TARTLE.

Jason Rigby (11:30):

Yeah. And I want you to talk about this, because this is really cool. He said, "Perfected private property rights are prerequisite to the proper placement of freedom, growth and responsibility in our social hierarchy of values."

Alexander McCaig (11:40):

Yeah. That's correct. No one's going to do anything if they feel like they can't own it and they can't say that this thing is mine. Because in a grand sense, it's very difficult for people to just be openly altruistic and just throw their resources out to everybody. Unless everybody was doing that, then we wouldn't have to worry about property rights, because we all understand the unification and what's going on. But that lacks right now, so we're required to have this property right of our work.

Jason Rigby (12:03):

And property's not real estate. We had a whole episode on this, where we talked about property rights.

Alexander McCaig (12:07):

Property rights, data, thought, your choices, all this shit that's going on.

Jason Rigby (12:11):

Whatever you create in your own free will. That is your property.

Alexander McCaig (12:15):

That's correct.

Jason Rigby (12:15):

He said, "There are no finite answers to the world's unlimited problems. Our only hope is to empower more and more problem solvers. Entrepreneurship is pragmatic to problems and therefore our greatest hope."

Alexander McCaig (12:26):

Yeah. And that's true. And this is what... What's that gentleman who's speaking in Texas to the Senate?

Jason Rigby (12:31):

Ah, Ted Cruz.

Alexander McCaig (12:33):

We're apolitical, but Ted Cruz was saying is like, if you put limitations on what's happening around the fabric of blockchain technologies, you are going to cripple our future. And he said, "Because you don't want to take the time to understand it and only hear what the media tells you and try and slide this stuff in, that regulation will cripple your future and the people that will vote for you within your future." So you have to afford that freedom. You have to afford sovereignty. You don't go into the forest and then put a cement wall around it and say, "Oh, it's going to grow so well." You've already created a natural upper limit to what the forest can be creative with, with it defining and evolving itself to all the catalysts that affect that forest.

Jason Rigby (13:14):

Yeah. Look at Australia, New Zealand and Hawaii when we introduce these species that are not...

Alexander McCaig (13:20):

Yeah, it destroys it. So when you artificially come in and then try and-

Jason Rigby (13:24):

With the concrete walls, with the... Whatever it may be.

Alexander McCaig (13:27):

Whatever it might be, you are actually destroying the natural freedom that is required for this thing to actually become something great.

Jason Rigby (13:34):

Yeah. And so I want people to understand the power of TARTLE. And so, like I said, he talks about Bitcoin. But we could replace the word Bitcoin with TARTLE. "Bitcoin suffers no kings. A money uniquely characterized by a firmly-fixed finitude of supply. Bitcoin is capable of communicating an infinity of economic and interpersonal values without being politicized, thereby bringing unprecedented harmony to human actions across space-time."

Alexander McCaig (13:58):

Yeah. Okay. In the sense of our material world across space-time, Breedlove is discussing the fact that Bitcoin, in and of itself, there's 21 million of them, which is divisible around to a certain amount of Satoshis. You can't just continue to print more. So from its progenesis, it has a set amount of this thing. But one of the greatest issues we have found with it is that it has been associated to the US dollar. Is that clear? So now-

Jason Rigby (14:35):

No, I've seen charts where they took the US dollar and then they put Bitcoin with it.

Alexander McCaig (14:38):

The problem is Bitcoin was fundamentally designed to say, "Let's look to a better system." But then people got caught up with saying, "Well, it's only worth this when we attach its value in exchange for the US dollar," no what it means as a technology, what it means as a sovereign empowerment tool, which has now been left. And so what you find is individuals like Breedlove and other champions are pushing the sovereign tool. But the rest of society, the ones who have resources, have now inextricably linked its value to the US dollar. And that's a problem. And that's why it won't continue to exist in the future for what it was originally intended. The only thing that can make that happen is work. And that happens on the TARTLE marketplace, because everybody has the ability to be responsible and do work to create an earning and a value for their future. But not everybody has infinite sums of money to then buy into a Bitcoin system.

Jason Rigby (15:32):

Yeah. He says in Bitcoin, "Only our ideas matter, not our egos." What I would say, in TARTLE's marketplace, only our work matters, not our egos.

Alexander McCaig (15:38):

That's correct. Only your work matters. What you put in, what you're willing to share. Your work towards truth is what drives that value. Not only for you, but for everyone that interacts with you as a member, as a human being on that marketplace.

Jason Rigby (15:50):

Yeah. And he says, "A money composed by principles of pure justice pushes us all to become more competent by fulfilling an equitable arena for economic competition and cooperation." And that's what the TARTLE marketplace does. It's a principle of pure justice, economic competition and cooperation. That's what a free market does.

Alexander McCaig (16:08):

Well, yeah, justice, it's the quality of being fair. It has to be designed for fairness. But now, the value of Bitcoin and people wanting to be a part of it is becoming unfair. So now, all these companies are coming out trying to create new ways for people to get micro amounts of Bitcoin for free. So what happens is some other larger resource holder has to buy it and then find a new way to divvy it up. It's like who can come in and now create more fractions of the piece of the pie? Because it has naturally crippled itself by linking its value to the US dollar.

Jason Rigby (16:41):

Well, what's going to happen if Bitcoin gets fully adopted, it's going to be owned by the 1%.

Alexander McCaig (16:45):

Always.

Jason Rigby (16:47):

And then, like you said, DeFi applications we built, like Lightning, you have with Twitter now you can send Bitcoin back and forth.

Alexander McCaig (16:54):

Why? Because the individuals who own the greater majority of it can now dish it back out. It's just new forms of central banks. Oh, good. Thanks for creating a new tool. But you still had to buy in with US dollar.

Jason Rigby (17:07):

Yeah. And so I own one Bitcoin and it's $500 million, where Bitcoin is now, let's pretend we're in the future, and so I have this capital. I have $500 million to be able to divvy it. I mean, they already have it where you can pull interest off of these. You have blockchains where-

Alexander McCaig (17:25):

They linked it right back into the old order. So Jason, the greatest part of it, which was my hope when it had originally come out, is that if I go to buy a cup of coffee, I am not charged on what individuals think or what the corrupt, current financial markets think that value of the cup of coffee is as a commodity. That individual would charge me for that cup of coffee in Bitcoin, depending on what they see the value of that Bitcoin is. Not to say that it costs this much to produce it. And the difficulty is the energy that goes into the production of material items, that is still linked to the US dollar system. So Bitcoin, as long as it continues to be used for these purchases of things that are manufactured and the energy actually comes in a US dollar system, it's inextricably linked to it. And that's going to be its failure in the future.

Alexander McCaig (18:23):

The technology is great. The fundamentals, the philosophy has that perfection to it. Free will and sovereignty-free markets. But society's now linking it back to the thing that is the old broken [inaudible 00:18:35].

Jason Rigby (18:35):

Yeah. And it will happen, because the whales will come in, as they are starting to. Once the regulation hits, we've talked about this before, and these hedge fund managers get a clear... If you're getting 113% return every year, which Bitcoin has done, then, of course, you're going to want be a part of that. But I need to de-risk this, because I have the potential love.

Alexander McCaig (18:56):

Well, they have more resources now. So they can jump in much faster than you did, even later in the game. Their adoption rate is much easier for them. There's less friction. You have a higher friction.

Jason Rigby (19:07):

Yeah. And so without getting into Bitcoin, because I want to compare this to TARTLE marketplace, that was kind of the whole idea of this. And the last thing I want to get into for this episode is he says, "Bitcoin imparts a renewed hope for humanity. As we navigate even deeper into the impenetrable horizons of the future, removing the attack surface for would-be plunderers of money is a great leap forward for the potential proliferation and moralization of civilization." So let's step away at of Bitcoin and get into the TARTLE marketplace.

Jason Rigby (19:36):

When we look at these attack surfaces for would-be plunderers of money, or pirates, let's say. Remember back in the day they would go in the Caribbean. The pirates had little systems set up and they knew they could take this ship from Spain and then steal this gold. And then they started eating themselves up.

Alexander McCaig (19:57):

Yeah. Because now they're fighting over it. So here's the idea. Larger tech monopolies had a plunder or a piracy on individual's data. Essentially, their rights to this asset that they have worked to generate. We have developed a tool that doesn't cost money to use. A tool that says, "Put in a little bit of work, your own work, under your own responsibility, and take back that away from the plunderers," then forcing a higher moral code between both parties. I'm responsible for what I create. And those who wish to take it from me, must pay me for that.

Alexander McCaig (20:39):

And I must be willing to share, rather than to say, "I can just pay in and take as much as I want, because I have more resources. I have a bigger ship. I have a bigger cannon." That's no longer the thing. We've removed that. That element, it no longer exists when you come on to join TARTLE. The fundamentals create that higher moral code. The ethics then change within that market. Do you see what I'm saying?

Jason Rigby (21:00):

Yes. A hundred percent. And this is where I really want, especially buyers of data to understand. Whenever you're coming in to purchase data, whether you're a whale, if you want to use that terminology or whatever, or whether you're a small business located in Anchorage, Alaska and you want to know about hunters that are coming in and whatever it may be, environmental issues, whatever it is, you have the ability to have the power of TARTLE's marketplace to you, regardless if you're a small guide service in Alaska or you're the biggest whale in the world.

Alexander McCaig (21:41):

Precisely correct. There is no caste system or social hierarchy that you could play as your card to get ahead as a bigger resource holder. Everybody has equal access and rights to it.

Jason Rigby (21:58):

You can purchase more data if you have more money, but that's the free marketplace.

Alexander McCaig (22:03):

Yeah, go ahead. Listen, purchase more. All you're doing is then reinforcing a higher moral code, the more money you spend in.

Jason Rigby (22:09):

And then that's what friends and family are going to know, that this person, and then they can willfully choose to sell that data to that corporation or not. It grows and grows and then helps humanity more, and more, and more.

Alexander McCaig (22:19):

That's all it is. So you are actually feeding into a system which helps humans evolve, which helps us move forward into the darkness of our future.

Jason Rigby (22:28):

So if you're a buyer of data and you want to know more, what's the best way to get ahold of us?

Alexander McCaig (22:34):

You need to email MH@tartle.co. M as in Mary, H as in Harry @tartle.co.

Jason Rigby (22:42):

And by emailing that, you can ask questions. We can set up APIs with you.

Alexander McCaig (22:48):

Let's establish a relationship.

Jason Rigby (22:49):

There's a lot of different scenarios that you would be shocked in the way that you could purchase the data and how flexible the marketplace is.

Alexander McCaig (22:55):

And how much value you can receive as a business.

Jason Rigby (22:58):

And ethically, that's the key.

Alexander McCaig (23:01):

De-risk your business. Hello? Don't we all want do that? Enough said. Breedlove. Thank you. See you later.

Audio (23:16):

Thank you for listening to TARTLE Cast with your hosts Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanity steps into the future and source data defines the path. And what's your data worth?