How Small, Everyday Innovations Drive Oversized Results - NYT Best Selling Author Josh Linkner

Alexander McCaig (00:00):

Well, everybody welcome back to TARTLE Cast. You're joining us today with our special guest, Mr. Linkner, Josh Linkner. He was the author of Big Little Breakthroughs. I know it sounds a little paradoxical to have a Big Little Breakthrough; but when you actually dive through this book, the simplicity of the approach is quite genius. So Josh, thank you so much for joining us today on TARTLE Cast.

Josh Linkner (00:35):

Oh, my pleasure to be with you. Thank you.

Alexander McCaig (00:38):

A New York Times bestseller, kind of makes sense after reading this. And, you have some metal core metaphorical frameworks that you begin with. And I think that foundation is important for understanding how this can be applicable to many different things in life itself. And Jason and I have this discussion, and I'll talk about those metaphors in a moment, where it's important we talk to people to create understanding. There's many books out; there's much knowledge, there's much data. But unless we actually understand the data, that's the thing that actually drives a fundamental difference for our evolution. Right? If I can understand the data of the cars in a Frogger scenario, well that's definitely going to help me with my evolution and my survival. Correct?

Josh Linkner (01:26):

No question about it.

Alexander McCaig (01:27):

Yeah. No question about it. Right? So let's talk about two things here. One is going to be the ripple effect. I think that's fundamentally important. If you throw a small stone in the water, the physics of that wave will grow and actually spread out over time in a radial format. And then the other aspect I want to talk about is neuroplasticity. That's just to kind of lay a foundation here. So when we think about neuro-plasticity, our world is albeit not that rigid. It actually has the flexibility of water. Water has this covalent bond, right? So it can flex and move, and still hold itself together. But it does have the ability to adapt and change to the environment.

Alexander McCaig (02:07):

And then, if I have this solution that can adapt and change, much like my brain, which can adapt and change. If I throw a catalyst into it, whether it be a thought, or I throw a stone into that water, I create ripples within that change: change within myself, or if I create a material object, that can create other systemic effects for everything else that's happening in our world.

Alexander McCaig (02:25):

So the Big Little Breakthroughs are those small things that have massive, radial, asymmetric effects, where we didn't actually think it would have such a massive outcome, but it does. So am I a little bit off the base here with describing that for a foundational platform, that kind of lays out how a Big Little Breakthrough really works, is understanding the flexibility and the catalyst that come together to create these great changes?

Josh Linkner (02:49):

Yeah. I think you hit it right on the head. Zooming out for a second, this is a book about innovation and human creativity. And that's something that all of us have the capacity to do, but many of us are concerned, or we hold back. And the reason is because we think that it has to be a giant "change the world" initiative to count. Or maybe we think, "It's not my job." Or, "It's for somebody else." Like it's some exclusive club to which they're no longer accepting membership.

Josh Linkner (03:13):

In Big Little Breakthroughs, I tried to write a book that was flipping those ideas upside down. Think of it as innovation for the rest of us; and it's helping everyday people become everyday innovators. And the whole notion behind it, it's a more pragmatic approach to driving creativity. Instead of these swing for the fences, wildly risky, irresponsible bets, it's cultivating small daily acts of little breakthroughs. I think of them as micro-innovations. And you're exactly right with the ripple, that when you put one of those into play, it can have wide, sweeping impact.

Josh Linkner (03:45):

Furthermore, when you think of little ideas, they're less risky, they're more accessible to us all, they're building critical skill. The way we get better at anything is through doing the reps. And also those, little things add up to big things. So I just think it's a much more sort of simple and pragmatic approach to cultivating human creativity, in order to drive meaningful results.

Alexander McCaig (04:04):

Yeah. And that's just really sharp. And you spoke about individuals, even Mark Zuckerberg in here; the way the public perceives the change is that they weren't watching it the entire time. They only see the thing that happened after the fact. So it may look like one massive risk that was actually taken, but really, they were very small compounded, calculated efforts that were brought together, that look like something enormous. So our perception from the outside, I think is important here, in terms of my lens for how I was viewing your book. It offers a perception to creativity on the small scale, and affords something quite large. So when you look at these people, and you're like, "Well, how did they do it?" Well, they didn't do just something large, risky, and massive; they took many, many small steps, typically calculated, that had ripple effects. And then they tried to compound those into probabilities that led them to something great and wonderful.

Josh Linkner (04:58):

Yeah. Beautifully said. You're exactly right. Our vision of how people become wildly successful is that, Elon Musk is in the shower one day, and he has this idea for an electric vehicle. And by the time he drives off, he's whisked off to fame and fortune. And that is not at all how things come to life. In fact, initial ideas are interesting; but more often than not, they're flawed. And initial ideas are important, but they only really come to life through a series of interconnected, additional, creative steps. It's not just like the one Big Bang theory; it's lots of those little cascading ideas, the ripple effects, that all coalesce together, in order to finally launch something that looks like a single thing, but it really is made up of lots and lots of smaller ones.

Alexander McCaig (05:41):

And what you're talking about, too; in order to get to those small little effects, you've also backed this up with the neuroscience, and also understanding, creativity is not something that is learned. It's something we have and we unlearn; which is very interesting inverse to what we're used to. And creative people break things a lot. And you mentioned that you have to really break things to truly create. And Jason, you had a question on this, right?

Jason Rigby (06:12):

Yeah. We can get into that on the Eight Obsessions of Everyday Innovators. That was part two of your book, which I really enjoyed those sections. But, you have one on chapter eight, Break It to Fix It. I know we're kind of skipping ahead, but I think this is essential. What does it take, as far as courage, to look at something and then be willing to break it?

Josh Linkner (06:33):

Yeah, it's a really thoughtful question. It turns out the biggest blocker of creative output is not natural talent. It's fear; fear of that poison as far as that robs us of our best thinking. And so we tend to share our safe ideas, and hold our more provocative ones back. And also we have a tendency to assume that things, as they are, are optimized; that the status quo is really safe. And one thing that I've learned in 30 years in business is that too often, we overestimate the risk of trying something new, but we underestimate the risk of standing still. So the principle that you're talking about, there's a chapter called Break It to Fix It. We've all heard that expression. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And can I just say, that is horrible advice. Who came up with that?

Josh Linkner (07:16):

Do you want your airline pilot saying, "Hey, I'm not going to fix the plane unless it's broken." That's craziness. You want your surgeon saying that? So anyway, the principle of that concept is that, "Let's proactively examine the systems and processes and methodologies and products, and everything that we do. And listen, if it's still optimized, keep it. Don't change just for the sake of it. But more often than not, I find that we often just sort of default to the status quo, when in fact, there's a better way." So this is sort of challenging ourselves to upgrade what we're doing now, letting go of the past, in favor of the possible.

Alexander McCaig (07:48):

So now, can I cut you off?

Jason Rigby (07:50):

Yes. Go ahead.

Alexander McCaig (07:51):

Thank you. Then that brings me back to the beginning of the book, right? So you talk about fear as this thing that creates sort of stagnation, and hinders probability lines, certain next side to occur. Well, let's talk about the chewing gum. You stated that she had an enemy; and you'd have to read the book. And this is in the beginning, so for anybody who doesn't have much attention, you could be able to find this quickly. Is it necessary to have an enemy to require that catalyst for creativity, or for that change? Because when I think of enemy, I do think of a fear state; because that's what it is. When I have an enemy, that means I lack understanding. This thing is a threat; and they lack understanding of me. But if fear is that thing that prevents us from getting there, but you're saying she had an enemy which were this oligopoly over the gum manufacturers, Cadbury and Wrigley. How does that actually work? Could you explain that for me? Because I was a little lost when I carried through here, and I see these two things that are kind of opposing one another.

Josh Linkner (08:53):

Sure. Just a couple of fundamentals, because I think anyone listening who hasn't hasn't read the book, that I think are important. First of all, the research is crystal clear that your creativity is like your weight, not your height. So for example, try as I may, I'm not going to grow a foot by next month; but my weight I can control, based on my habits, my mindsets, my tactics. And that is exactly what creativity is. So all of us, truly, have enormous reservoirs of creative capacity. Yeah, we need to build some skill, and put those into practice; but there's no such thing as, "That's a creative person, and this is not a creative person." All of us have the ability to be creative in our own ways.

Josh Linkner (09:28):

The second thing is, in the book, I tried to show stories that are the untold stories that ought to be told. So I don't talk about, "Oh, look at Netflix." Or, "Look at apple." Because no kidding; we already know those stories. So I tried to show stories of everyday people doing amazing things. And the story you're referencing is of a woman that I interviewed for the book, named Caron Proschan. And Caron was a fitness nut. And she was really into health; but she also liked chewing gum. So she finishes a workout one day, and looks into her gym bag, and sees this weird alien blue gum. There's no color in nature that looks like that. And so she says, "Oh man. I should really go buy some natural gum." And goes home, goes on Amazon, and finds that there's no such thing as natural gum. And so she finds out that the gum industry is controlled; you call it an oligopoly, by two giant organizations; and they use all kinds of terrible ingredients and such.

Josh Linkner (10:16):

So she decided to set out and create the world's first all-natural gum, called Simply Gum. And we cover her story, and now she's wildly successful and such. But your question; and so anyway, I think it was just helpful for the listeners to follow along.

Alexander McCaig (10:28):

Thanks for the compliment there.

Josh Linkner (10:28):

The question is, "Do you need an enemy?" I don't think an enemy has to be something scary, but I do think that... And there's another chapter in the book called Fall in Love With the Problem. I think it is important for you to have a disdain for something. Maybe it's a disdain for the status quo. Maybe it's a disdain for, in this case, she was really upset that people were poisoning their bodies with chemicals, when they could be enjoying natural gum. So I don't think it has to be a fear-based enemy. It could be... Your enemy could even be yourself, in the regard of not reaching your full potential. Maybe your enemy is the lazy version of yourself, or the non-creative version of yourself. So it doesn't have to be hostile; but I do think it's helpful to have something that's sort of prodding you or pushing you in the direction to bring your creativity forward, and sort of muster up the courage to give it a shot.

Alexander McCaig (11:13):

So, if I'm mustering up the creativity, moving myself forward. How would I find that sort of self-awareness within the self, for running a company, or whatever it might be, to either eradicate or understand my anti-creative biases that I may have? If I've taken this learned approach over my life that I'm not creative, or people say, "I'm not good at math, not learning a language," I'm reinforcing subconscious patterns that really aren't beneficial. Now if I'm reinforcing the fact that I'm not creative, how do you flip that hard switch? How do you actually do a micro-creative thought, to actually put me in a direction to where I'm not anti-creative, but way more creational. Is that possible?

Josh Linkner (11:55):

Yeah, it is. And you're right. There are a lot of biases that exist. The good news is that we can disprove those very quickly. And so the best way to kill that quickly, is to just do an experiment. So one of the things that is hard, I think, is that people try to solve a problem all at once. So if I said, "Hey." The three of us were hanging out, and let's pick a problem that's in the news today. How about racial injustice? Yeah, that's a problem. "Hey, how about the three of us just come up with one single idea in the next three minutes, that solves all racial injustice forever?" Yeah. Good luck with that. That would be a very difficult challenge. And we're unlikely to come up with an elegant solution. It's almost an intractable problem.

Josh Linkner (12:32):

On the other hand, if I said, "Hey, let's spend three minutes brainstorming, or just riffing, on little teeny ideas that might help the problem, not solve it all at once. But what's one little thing that we might be able to do?" So one person might say, "Hey, what if we had more interconnected in the faith-based communities for people to gain empathy of each other? We could host every other Saturday, a lunch for that." "Oh, what if we studied each other's culture to learn and gain empathy?"

Josh Linkner (13:00):

And so the point is, we could quickly rattle off a hundred small ideas, where we would be stuck in the weeds to find one big one. And so I think a good test for somebody who's feeling uncreative, is to give yourself a little experiment. Pick a problem. Like for example, we go to the doctor's office, and that always stinks. The experience is awful. The receptionist is behind bulletproof glass, and they shove a clipboard in your face. And you sit in these uncomfortable plastic chairs, and you have to read 15-year old magazines.

Josh Linkner (13:25):

And so you say, "Okay, what are three ideas that could make the waiting room experience better for a doctor's office?" And I'm pretty sure that everyone listening, even if you've felt like you're not a creative person, you could quickly say, "Oh, remove the bulletproof glass. Give people an iPad so hey can read current stuff. Make more comfortable chairs." The point is, that if we practice a little bit of creativity, we can retrain ourselves that in fact, we are creative people.

Josh Linkner (13:48):

The other thing I'd just quickly say is that, too often, we relegate creativity to only showing up in certain ways. In other words, we think that if your job is to paint on canvas, you're creative. If your job is to run a call center, you're not creative. And that couldn't be further from the truth. There's there's room for creativity in all areas. And so let's not only give ourselves permission to be creative in a classical sense, like playing music or dance. We can be creative in lots of ways; that could be creative in the way that you interview a job candidate, or run a Monday morning meeting, or interact with your kids.

Alexander McCaig (14:18):

It's like pointillism. And I love that metaphor, because it played very well with these little things accumulating to something quite large. But the creativity was in the simplicity of how we're actually doing it. It's not large strokes. It's not having the biggest Coronation of Napoleon over at the Louvre, which is like 30 feet high. I can take a small picture, but it can carry a lot of depth and weight. But something so simple by itself, doesn't look like something that we would recognize as an object or an image or a symbol. But when we continue to put these things together, it creates a great symbol of unity.

Alexander McCaig (14:59):

And you talk about people, teams, and companies are more creative, and have better financial outcomes across the board when they're creative. Well, the value of a pointillism painting has increased over time; just look at Sotheby's. And that's strictly in the economic sense; but we find understanding when we can look at the micro and then back out to the macro like you talk about.

Alexander McCaig (15:21):

What about now, if we talk about whole cultures? Josh, what if we talk about nations themselves? Have you seen any data that this can actually accrue towards great understanding and change, where nations can find Big Little Breakthroughs? We've seen it in science with astronomy, with Galileo and then other individuals who say, "This is how the universe works." And they're like, "No, it doesn't work like that. Is it a slower timeframe, when you talk about these larger bodies? Or can it still match; does the data still show that it's possible, and can still match the timeframe that individuals or smaller collectives can do to create that great change?

Josh Linkner (16:02):

Yeah. So backing up for a second on pointillism, the cover of the book, as you know, as you saw, was based on that concept.

Alexander McCaig (16:07):

Yeah.

Josh Linkner (16:08):

And pointillism is a cool art form, in that you can just take a simple, primary-colored dot. I have a four-year-old daughter Talia, and she could make a green dot on that page, no problem. And if you make enough dots, and put them together in a thoughtful way, that's how art emerges. And then the reason I was grabbing my book right now, is there's an inscription in there from van Gogh. "Great things are done by a series of small things brought together."

Alexander McCaig (16:28):

Yeah.

Josh Linkner (16:29):

To me, that's not only the definition of pointillism, but it's the definition of progress. And so, to your question, when we think about nation states or large organizations; ,how do you effectuate meaningful change and drive progress? I think it's the same thing. It's one little step at a time. It's one Big Little Breakthrough at a time. So there are cases where a president of a country can wield the power of the collective, and forge ahead in a military operation or something. But sustainable progress usually doesn't come from the stroke of an autocratic leader; it comes from the body of the people.

Josh Linkner (17:03):

And when you look at movements that have changed the world, like Martin Luther King; he was a catalyst. Talk about a ripple effect, and really helped change people's outlook, and eventually changed legislation around racial injustice. When you look at movements like Rosa Parks, is another example of that. These are individuals that became the catalyst to drive systemic change, as opposed to some big shot behind a big mahogany desk issuing a mandate. So, yeah. I think that's... In fact, that's the primary way that things change, is at that grassroots, Big Little Breakthrough level.

Jason Rigby (17:37):

Yeah. Josh, I want to ask you about getting back to part two, The Eight Obsessions of Everyday Innovators. We have a lot of young tech leaders that listen to this podcast; and it seems to be all over, not just the United States, but all over the world, 222 countries. When we look at this younger generation that's coming up, and we see whether they've been helicopter parented, and we have all these phrases on that. And when I look at these Eight Obsessions of Everyday Innovators, in what we're talking about, and not just on creativity, but this risk-taking. "Start before you're ready." "Break it till you free it." "Reach for weird." Those are all things that they've been taught; this younger generation has been taught to be safe, to be secure. Whenever you look at something like "start before you're ready." How do you overcome that? Especially somebody that's younger like that; how would they overcome and have... And I'm bringing up the word courage again; but have the courage to be able to "start before you're ready?"

Josh Linkner (18:36):

Yeah. Awesome question. So you're right. The book is organized that in the first part, we sort of cover he research around human creativity. We cover the habits and then a little bit of tactics. But the last section of the book, which is really the meat of it, are the Eight Obsessions of Everyday Innovators; and these are learned through thousands of hours of research and interviews with people all over the world. "What are the commonalities? What are the mindsets? What are the patterns? How do they think and act on a daily basis?" And as mentioned, many of these are counter-intuitive to what we've been taught.

Josh Linkner (19:07):

So one of the principles that you're addressing, is called "start before you're ready," which is the notion of most of us wait. We wait until we have a directive from the boss, or from a parent. We wait until we have permission. We wait until we have a bulletproof game plan. But there's an inherent risk of waiting, in that we might miss the opportunity altogether, or give the time advantage to somebody else.

Josh Linkner (19:28):

So the question that you're asking is a really thoughtful one, is, "How do you muster up courage to 'start before you're ready,' if we've been basically taught that we should be safe?" The way you de-risk "starting before you're ready," is through experimentation. In other words, what does "start before you're ready" look like? Let's say I have an idea, and it's a half-baked idea. And I don't really have all the answers. If the way I bring that to life, is by betting my entire future, or my company or my family on that, I would call that irresponsibly risky.

Josh Linkner (19:53):

Instead, what you do is say, "Okay. I have an idea. I'm not yet in a position to tell you if it's the right idea or the wrong idea. So what do I need to do? I need to test it." So the way you de-risk "starting before you're ready," or most innovation, for that matter, is small, controlled experiments; fixed time, fixed money. I call them crude, or low fidelity experiments. So if I had an idea like, "Oh, I got this new product idea. I'm just going to bet my entire life savings on it." Don't do that. Instead, you might say, "Hey. Can I stitch it together with Play-Doh and duct tape, and give it to one potential customer for 10 minutes, and see what they say about it?" And if they give you some feedback, then maybe you tweak the experiment before you do it again.

Josh Linkner (20:31):

The point is that if you marshall an idea through a series of small, controlled experiments, you can way de-risk the process. So by the time you're ready to take a meaningful risk, you already have de-risked it entirely. That's a much more pragmatic and thoughtful way to bring ideas to life. Just think about this, man. Imagine... So thank God we have a COVID vaccine. Imagine if someone in a corner office at Pfizer one day was like, "Hey. I've got it. Eureka. Go print a billion doses." They would call security. That would never happen. How the idea actually came to life, is they were in a lab, and they ran some experiments; and some things worked, some things didn't. And over time, in a really thoughtful, deliberate manner, they marshaled it through a process, and out the other end came an innovation. That is exactly how we should be thinking for ourselves, for our small businesses, and for our communities.

Alexander McCaig (21:16):

So that's sort of thinking frame of reference. Yes, you did write the book. Now, do you put your money where your mouth is, in terms of venture capitalism? Do you actually apply this to your investment thesis when you actually look at firms, or look at products, ideas, and services?

Josh Linkner (21:32):

I do. And so for those that I haven't had the chance to meet. I started my career as a jazz guitarist. I still play regularly. I've had the great privilege of starting, building, and selling five tech companies of my own. And then I got into the venture capital world. And I've been involved in the launch of about a hundred startups.

Alexander McCaig (21:46):

That's amazing.

Josh Linkner (21:47):

So to answer your question. Yeah, I really do put my money where my mouth is, at a few different levels in fact. One of them is the team. So I like backing people; not the ones that have the loudest voice, or the most charismatic or whatever. I like backing people that are open-minded, that have a deliberate experimentation mindset, that are coachable, and willing to sort of adapt their position. They don't get dug in on a particular sort of religion of a product. They're willing to let the data drive forward. And they are not so showy, but they're more about including others, in terms of diversity of thinking, to bring an idea to life. So I apply the question that you asked, not only to the product itself, "Are they doing experimentation, for example?" But also the people. "Do they have that type of mindset?" Because those are the ones that I find ultimately are able to navigate the very difficult process of bringing a company to life.

Alexander McCaig (22:39):

And has your data shown that that has been a beneficial process? You have invested in a hundred startups; has it been beneficial for those startups? And did they continue with this, I guess this Big Little Breakthrough thesis that you have? And there's much data to back it up; but do they continue to use this as they grow through their own individual stages, and as you and your venture capital firm have grown? Does the data show that?

Josh Linkner (23:04):

It does. It's funny. I ran that little social experiment. I invested in two companies almost at the exact same time.

Alexander McCaig (23:10):

Okay.

Josh Linkner (23:11):

Coincidentally, it was a $600,000 investment in each company. And one company had an A-person team, and a C-level idea. I really liked the team. The idea wasn't so great. The other company was an A-idea, and a C-level team. So there's this whole question, "Is it the jockey or the horse?" kind of thing. What you're betting on? So I made this side-by-side bet. And here's what ends up happening. The A-idea with the C-team, the C-team managed to screw up the A-idea very quickly, because they were unwilling to experiment, and they were dogging it. They screwed it up. I lost every penny, complete zero on my investment.

Josh Linkner (23:45):

Meanwhile, the other company, the A-team with the C-idea, they started experimenting and tinkering, and they were committed to just following it through and adapting. And so they ended up taking their C-idea, making it an A-idea; and that company went from a value of $3 million to over $100 million. And so, it's very funny that these things really do play out in the data.

Josh Linkner (24:04):

One other funny example is there's a company that we backed early on, called StockX. And I'll never forget this guy, Greg, who is now a dear friend of mine, came in and pitched me this idea. And we worked with it, and he was very open-minded. We experimented with lots of things. And I just actually caught up with him last week. And the company is now valued at over $3.8 billion.

Alexander McCaig (24:23):

Amazing.

Josh Linkner (24:23):

By the way, I'm not taking credit; that's him and the team.

Alexander McCaig (24:25):

Yeah.

Josh Linkner (24:26):

But the point is that he, to this day, even though they have 1200 employees, and they have over a million users on their platform, are still tinkering and adapting. And they're applying these Big Little Breakthrough principles in action, on a daily basis. So in other words, it's not just my sort of belief in these principles. I see it proven out again, and again, and again. The data support these principles work.

Jason Rigby (24:46):

What made you... This is interesting, because a lot of people think StockX, but it's actually shoes, like Air Jordans and Yeezys and stuff like that, because I collect shoes. So what made you decide to invest in them? Was it the team? Was it... Because that's an amazing idea, I mean the innovation alone on it.

Josh Linkner (25:03):

Yeah. So it's actually a little more complex than that. Originally, Greg came in with a totally different idea. And I thought his idea wasn't that great, but I loved him. He was open-mind, exhibited all the characteristics that we talked about. So I said, "Listen. I'm not comfortable investing in your existing idea, but would you be open-minded to coming back and brainstorming with me for a couple of hours, and maybe we can tweak it together?" So he said, "Sure." And he was the open-minded, gracious, humble guy. We played around with his idea, and eventually came up with something that had nothing to do with StockX. It was called UpTo.

Josh Linkner (25:29):

And we then invested in his company, and he got going. And it actually kind of was mediocre. It didn't really take off the way everyone wanted hoped. But we loved him. And so my partner at the time, a guy named Dan Gilbert, approached Greg, who we all loved, the leader of this company, and said, "Hey, what do you think about morphing that into what is now known as StockX?" So you pointed out earlier, we look at great success, and we think it's a single thing; but this was a number of different pivots and changes, that ultimately led to StockX.

Josh Linkner (25:58):

And even today, you're right. StockX is known for being a marketplace for high-end shoes. But now they're into all other things. They sell other types of collectibles, from watches and art and alcohol. And now they're even getting into a situation where you can buy investible assets without ever taking possession. So in other words, if you wanted to buy a stock, you could buy and trade that stock without owning the physical stock certificate. But if you believe that Yeezy's are a good investment category, you could buy the shoes, and trade them, and trade derivatives and stuff, and never actually take possession of the shoes. So even today, StockX is evolving from a marketplace of buyers and sellers of shoes, to a whole bunch of other stuff, because they're continuing to practice these principles on a daily basis.

Alexander McCaig (26:36):

It's this solution of adaptation, I think, is quite wonderful. Is that when we're afforded catalysts like a car coming at us, like Frogger on the road, or a steam train, or whatever it might be. Well, how do we adapt to those major catalysts? I have the flexibility to move. I can move with the ebb and flow of time and nature. And my Big Little Breakthroughs are really the secondary effects of my adaptation to what I see around me. And that seeing requires that creative eye; is knowing what I can adapt to, seeing the possibilities of places where I can head to. And when I'm reading your book, and I'm listening to you speak now in how you invest in these firms, do you see great hope for the future of humans, and our evolution, and how we are doing things? Do you find that this eye of creativity will expand? Our understanding and our adaptation will become more flexible in this very decentralized, but yet heavily interconnected world?

Josh Linkner (27:41):

It's a thoughtful question. Obviously, we're living in a time of great challenge. We have the COVID crisis, there's geopolitical turmoil, you name a problem, we've got it. That being said, I have great, not only hope, deep hope; but also a lot of conviction in that we, as a civilization, will continue to create our way forward. You look back in time from the stone age; how do we evolve as a species? Well, we created the wheel, and we harnessed fire, and over time we developed penicillin and movable type. And the reason we are where we are, is through various acts of creative thought along the process.

Josh Linkner (28:19):

The good news is that, while the challenges may be accelerating, the creativity is accelerating, in my opinion, at a faster rate. So we're going to continue to create, in my mind, a really wonderful future. Today, I'm focused on investing in the future of work, the future of learning, the future of sustainability, and the future of security. Because I think these are all core, fundamental, hierarchy of needs, human challenges that we're facing, as a civilization.

Josh Linkner (28:46):

But I think that we've historically always driven progress through creativity, whether it was coming up with the concept of democracy, or whether it was coming up with the concept of healthcare, or equality, or many of the other things that we hold so dear. In fact, the Constitution of the United States, not to get all political, that was a bold, creative, breakthrough concept. "What? We're not going to have a monarchy? What? The people are in control." And so even the things that, now we think of these as sort of self-evident, were so radical in the time. So I think the only way that we deal with radical challenge is through radical creativity.

Alexander McCaig (29:20):

Are there red flags? That's really sharp. And I do appreciate that. Are there red flags we can look out for within ourselves and others to say, "If I associate with this group, or this business, or I continue to go down this idea I have in my mind, it's actually squandering creativity, taking this path. It's limiting possibility. It's not a very integrative, very understanding, collaborative approach that the data has shown is beneficial." Are there major red flags people can look out for?

Josh Linkner (29:54):

Yeah. I think one red flag is a bias to a protectionism, or thinking that success is a temporary state, as opposed to... I'm sorry, success is a permanent state, as opposed to a temporary state, which it really is, in the context of many external factors that are changing at a rate like none other in history. So the notion of that "We can crack the code at something and never have to change," I think is very risky.

Josh Linkner (30:16):

I think another one is, you asked the question earlier about that many of us play it safe. And you're exactly right. But we've been taught that by well-intentioned parents and bosses and such, or school teachers. But one thing I've often thought of is, so generally, play it safe is our primary plan. Then we have a plan B, which is, "What happens if our primary plan doesn't work out?" Plan B is the even safer plan. That's like the safety net plan.

Josh Linkner (30:42):

And I guess my challenge back to that is, "Why don't we also invest some time in coming up with a plan Z?" In other words, if your plan B is what happens if everything goes wrong, why not have a plan Z? What happens if everything goes right? Maybe the plan Z is the one where you take some responsible risk, and that's your calling, and you're pushing the creative boundaries, and you're going to scrape your knees from time to time, but you're going to pursue what you're built to do. And you're going to look back with great pride and enthusiasm, as opposed to looking back with regret.

Josh Linkner (31:10):

My only point is these forces, I think, need to be balanced; it's not one or the other. But if we spend every waking moment worrying and fear-based in plan B land, I think we need to counter balance that. That would be a risk factor. The counterbalance is, "Let's invest a little bit of time and energy into our plan Z; either creative plan, the plan that we want to make history by."

Jason Rigby (31:28):

Yeah. And Josh, for the sake of time, I want to make sure that we're respectful of that. I would like to ask the last question. In chapter 12, you have, "Fall Seven Times, Stand Eight." For those out there that maybe need encouragement, that maybe have failed multiple times, what are ways that they can break through, get through the breakthrough on this failure? And then if they failed five, six times, what's the courage to take it to the eighth?

Josh Linkner (32:01):

Thank you for asking that. The principal "Fall Seven Times, Stand Eight." The phrase I actually borrowed from a Japanese proverb. And in the way I interpret it, it's not just dogged persistence. I think there's two really important lessons in there. One is, that setbacks and mistakes and stumbles and speed bumps; that's part of the process. There's a great quote from Mario Andretti that says, "If you feel like you're totally in control, you're probably not going fast enough."

Josh Linkner (32:25):

So if you're unwilling.

Jason Rigby (32:26):

I got to love race car drivers.

Alexander McCaig (32:30):

I love that guy.

Jason Rigby (32:30):

Every single time. Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (32:30):

Isn't that great?

Jason Rigby (32:31):

Yeah.

Alexander McCaig (32:32):

But the thing is that if we're unwilling to accept any bad ideas or any imperfections, we're governing our potential and our progress. So I think the first step is a recognition that that's part of the gig. And as part of that, let's extend ourselves some compassion when we have the inevitable screw up. When we botch an idea, it shouldn't be a Scarlet letter; perhaps it should be a badge of honor. And let's, instead of judge it, let's look at it as data. What can we learn from it? How can we make the next attempt better?

Alexander McCaig (32:58):

And the second thing, and by the way, everyone that we respect: every inventor, every billionaire, every successful person; there's never been somebody that hasn't stumbled, period. From sports to politics. So let's recognize that one in ourselves; it's not the end of the world.

Alexander McCaig (33:14):

The second thing I would say is that the way we get back up and continue, is not just doing the same thing over and over and over again. It's each... And my recommendation would be, each time you get back up, you dust yourself off, you say, "What's a slight creative pivot that I can make? What's a little tweak? What's an adaptation? How can I approach?" Doesn't have to be a radical change, but 1% change, a different angle on trying to solve the problem. And so, if you're getting back up, doing the same thing, of course you're going to keep failing. But if you get back up and try something new, that's the real inherent twist. So just look for little ways to inject the teeny dose of creativity with each new attempt. And so that creativity, fused with resilience, is ultimately what carries the day.

Alexander McCaig (33:55):

You know, this is amazing. And I think that is going to be some pretty resounding advice. And for the people that are out there that are listening to this, if you're reading fantasy novels or science fiction, maybe take a 1% pivot, and put your money into Big Little Breakthroughs. Because I think this will be a great, beneficial application and test for your own life. Break your normal habits, and then find that great gains in confidence, understanding, cooperation, and human evolution can come from that. So, Josh, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jason Rigby (34:35):

And do you have a website, or besides going to Amazon and getting the book, how could they get a hold of you?

Josh Linkner (34:41):

Yeah. First of all, just thanks to both of you. You're doing an amazing job here. You're making a real impact in people's lives. So mad, mad respect and gratitude.

Alexander McCaig (34:50):

Thank you.

Josh Linkner (34:50):

If anyone wants to check out, connect with me, yeah. Go to biglittlebreakthroughs.com. You certainly can buy the book if you want to; but even if you don't, which is okay, there's a free creativity assessment. You can sort of weigh in and see what's working out and what's not. There's a free Quick Start guide. There's a bunch of downloadable assets that are free. So if you think about that as your toolkit to drive creativity and innovation in your life, check it out. Biglittlebreakthroughs.com. And if you want to connect with me, my social handles on every channel are just my name. Josh Linkner. It's J-O-S-H, L-I-N-K-N-E-R.

Alexander McCaig (35:20):

Awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 4 (35:30):

Thank you for listening to TARTLE Cast, with your hosts, Alexander McCaig and Jason Rigby, where humanity steps into the future, and source data defines the path.